1

00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,960

Well, I've been involved from the start.

 

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I was asked to give some advice

to the people who McDonald's was serving

 

3

00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,240

at the very beginning of proceedings,

and then it was clear

 

4

00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:27,240

that none of them would be able

to gain any legal aid.

 

5

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And I've tried to help out

since then on the basis that

 

6

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without any legal advice at all,

they wouldn't have been able to pursue

 

7

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the case.

 

8

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The position when let me start again for

 

9

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libel

is one of the most complex areas of law

 

10

00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,400

in England and is recognized to be

all libel actions

 

11

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have to start in the High Court

because they're so complex.

 

12

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It's impossible, in my view, for anybody

to conduct a case as complicated

 

13

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as libel

without some form of legal assistance.

 

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I was able to help Dave and Helen

 

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and in fact the other defendants

before they dropped out of the picture

 

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by providing some legal services to them

because there's no legal aid.

 

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All of that had to be done for free.

 

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Had they been able to get laid out,

have had proper representation throughout.

 

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I was asked to advise Dave and Helen

 

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when McDonald's

first decided to sue them for libel,

 

21

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and I immediately saw that McDonald's

had a very strong legal team

 

22

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and that it was a complicated case

raising all sorts of issues.

 

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Libel is complicated anyway.

 

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It's a very complex area of the law,

and for that reason,

 

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all libel cases are in the high court,

not the county court.

 

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And as soon as I saw the imbalance,

I decided that I would do

 

27

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what I could to help them

through this complicated area of law

 

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in the best way that I could,

because there's no legal

 

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right for them.

 

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The issues raised in this trial

 

31

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are complicated

and important in two different senses.

 

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Firstly, there's the actual details

of the case itself, the allegations

 

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that are raised and whether they're true

or not, or whether people paying prove,

 

34

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but perhaps more fundamentally,

freedom of speech.

 

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To what extent are people to be able

to say what they genuinely believe is true

 

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and to be able

to defend themselves in court?

 

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So far as the first issue is concerned,

 

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there's a good deal of material

in support of what Dave and Helen

 

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say in their case and to substantiate

the arguments

 

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they've been putting in court.

 

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The problem has been getting that evidence

with no resources

 

42

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to fly in, witnesses

take detailed statements, etcetera.

 

43

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It's been extremely difficult

so far as the broader issue is concerned.

 

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It's very much a David and Goliath.

 

45

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There's an extremely good legal team

acting for McDonald's

 

46

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at great expense, and Dave and Helen

have to act for themselves.

 

47

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With me as a sort of free back up

whenever I've been able to see them all,

 

48

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they've had the time to see me.

 

49

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Yeah.

 

50

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McDonald's have a top QC

who specializes in libel.

 

51

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They have a junior counsel

and they have a firm of solicitors,

 

52

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are well known for their libel work,

so they have a top team

 

53

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with full expertise

and the weight of that

 

54

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team came down on Dave

and Howe from, from the very start.

 

55

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They've been battling with that

because it's not just the days

 

56

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in court

of the actual hearing of the case.

 

57

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There's been all sorts of hearings

before the case even started,

 

58

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which really have ground down

Dave and had a good look around

 

59

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and anybody in their position,

 

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I think they've done brilliantly well.

 

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They've done what most people wouldn't

have been able to do, which is to stand up

 

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for the right

to say what they genuinely believe

 

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to be true

and to try to prove that in court.

 

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And it's very important

that they've done that.

 

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The imbalance in the libel laws

 

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between those that have money

and those that don't creates a real risk.

 

67

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That criticism will be stifled

 

68

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purely and simply

because those without money

 

69

00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,920

cannot afford to stand up

and try to prove what they say is true.

 

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Dave and Helen are extraordinary couple,

in my opinion.

 

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When I first met them,

 

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they really didn't know

very much about the law at all,

 

73

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and they certainly didn't know

very much about libel law.

 

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But they've worked away and grappled away

with mountains of evidence

 

75

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and really difficult legal concepts,

and between them

 

76

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they formed a very good team,

their cross-examinations extremely good.

 

77

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Some of the answers

they've got out of the experts in court

 

78

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talk barristers will be very pleased

to have elicited,

 

79

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but they've also now managed to grasp

a lot of that very difficult legal.

 

80

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I'll start that with again.

 

81

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Time to talk about that.

 

82

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That's great. Great.

 

83

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We can use that and we can go on. Right.

 

84

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So just carry on as if I was to go. Yes.

 

85

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They've also managed to grasp

very difficult legal concepts.

 

86

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And now if we have a discussion

about a point that's cropped up

 

87

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or we have to draft something,

they're very quick with the arguments

 

88

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and they're able to draft stuff

on their own and argue it on their own.

 

89

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And I think they'll make very good lawyers

when they've finished.

 

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I will encourage them to do that.

 

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ON Well,

Richard Rampton has had a much easier

 

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job than Dave and Helen for two reasons.

 

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One is that he's obviously extremely

well qualified as a libel barrister.

 

94

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He's a QC.

 

95

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His expertise has been recognized

and therefore a lot of the legal points

 

96

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that have arisen he will have dealt

with before in his career.

 

97

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But secondly,

he has the natural advantage.

 

98

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The plaintiff in the libel action

can simply say, You've slandered me,

 

99

00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,880

you've libeled me, and then sit back

 

100

00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,720

and wait for the defendant to try

and prove what they've said is true.

 

101

00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:23,880

So his job has been relatively easy.

 

102

00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,520

He simply says, Well,

I think this is libelous.

 

103

00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,760

Doesn't Helen then have to

not only get on top of the same legal

 

104

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points as him, but put forward

the evidence to support their case?

 

105

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So there's an imbalance

 

106

00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,000

which is very much in his favor

rather than Dave and Helen's.

 

107

00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,800

I would say that it's been much,

much more difficult than has,

 

108

00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,080

I think, looking at the transcripts

and seeing what

 

109

00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,840

I've seen of the proceedings

and listening to Dave and Helen, that Mr.

 

110

00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,240

is done

as well as could have been expected.

 

111

00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,400

However, as I say, he has an easier job

than Dave and Helen,

 

112

00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,800

and it may be that he's in a situation

where he can't genuinely win.

 

113

00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,920

In other words, however

well he does in court, however many

 

114

00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,920

legal victories or points

he scored, nobody outside

 

115

00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,760

the court room is ever going to consider

that MacDonald's have won this case.

 

116

00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,400

He can't further his career

through this case because McDonald's,

 

117

00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,120

the outside public, are going to say

always, well,

 

118

00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,440

there was such an imbalance that can

I start again?

 

119

00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,320

Because I do think that's

quite a good point about

 

120

00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,200

the. Mr.

 

121

00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,360

Robinson has obviously

had a lot of experience of libel cases

 

122

00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,600

and has conducted this case in the way

I'm sure you would have conducted

 

123

00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:56,360

any other case.

 

124

00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,600

And he's won a number of legal victories

along the way.

 

125

00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,800

Having said that,

in terms of the evidence that's come out,

 

126

00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,160

I think David had them have done

far better than him.

 

127

00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,880

They've gained more than he has

in cross-examination.

 

128

00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,240

And in many ways

he's a barrister with a case

 

129

00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,920

which he can't win

even if the judgment goes in his favor.

 

130

00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:20,400

Nobody outside

 

131

00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,480

the courtroom is seriously going

to consider MacDonald's to be the victors

 

132

00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,440

because of the huge imbalance

between the resources of one party

 

133

00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,920

and the other, and the inability of Dave

and Helen to get the witnesses.

 

134

00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,240

They wanted that

on the day they needed them.

 

135

00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:03,000

This judge

 

136

00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,080

has only recently been appointed, and

I think this was one of his first cases.

 

137

00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:10,200

I think he must have been persuaded

that it was a six week

 

138

00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,200

case and it's now

turned out to be two years.

 

139

00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,240

It seems that he takes his lead from Mr.

 

140

00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,520

Rampton, who after all, is a leading

barrister on libel when legal issues

 

141

00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:23,520

arise.

 

142

00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,520

And I know that's caused difficulty

for Dave and Helen

 

143

00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,360

because they obviously see Mr.

 

144

00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,520

Upton's representing one side rather

whilst they're on the other side.

 

145

00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,240

So that has caused some difficulties

throughout the case.

 

146

00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,720

One of the examples

I think of how Dave, how

 

147

00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,720

well Dave and Helen

have done in defending themselves

 

148

00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,600

is that they forced MacDonald's legal team

 

149

00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,360

to have a strategic rethink

 

150

00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,560

two thirds of the way through the case

and Mr.

 

151

00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:11,040

Rampton, on behalf of McDonald's,

 

152

00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,520

decided to fundamentally change the way

in which he put the case

 

153

00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,480

and extend it by amending his statement

of claim two thirds of the way through

 

154

00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:23,040

that is was a significant

victory for Dave and Helen.

 

155

00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,040

The change that MacDonald's legal team

decided on two thirds of the way

 

156

00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:03,560

through the case was to extend the claim

against Dave and Helen massively,

 

157

00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,160

instead of now saying that they handed out

the leaflet on one or two occasions,

 

158

00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:14,040

they're trying to make them liable

for the entire production of the leaflet

 

159

00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,240

anywhere in the country

over a three or four year period,

 

160

00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:23,760

even when not handed out or distributed

directly by themselves.

 

161

00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:25,360

That's completely messy.

 

162

00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,600

Where can I run that again?

 

163

00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,120

Because it's so it's difficult

 

164

00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,120

enough for people to understand.

 

165

00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,120

She's actually

 

166

00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,720

one of the most remarkable things

about this case,

 

167

00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,000

and it tells us a lot about the way

Dave and Helen of managed to conduct it.

 

168

00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,000

Is that on one issue, nutrition,

the cross-examination

 

169

00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,640

by Dave and Helen of MacDonald's

witnesses was so devastating that Mr.

 

170

00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,320

Rampton had to change the case

for MacDonald and apply

 

171

00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,440

halfway through the case to change the way

he put his argument on nutrition

 

172

00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,600

and to amend his pleadings.

 

173

00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:10,920

And it's extremely unusual.

 

174

00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,040

And that's a tribute to the way

in which, as I say, Dave and Helen have

 

175

00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:15,080

conducted the case.

 

176

00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,520

One of the critical points in the case

arose

 

177

00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:32,880

after the cross-examination of MacDonald's

nutrition experts when Mr..

 

178

00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,520

To change the case

fundamentally on behalf of MacDonald

 

179

00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,600

because they're witnesses

have been so shaken in

 

180

00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,400

cross-examination

and expanded his case massively

 

181

00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,520

because of the cross-examination

and now being repetitive.

 

182

00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,400

Maybe

 

183

00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:51,960

one extraordinary feature

 

184

00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,240

of the case was when Mr.

 

185

00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,000

Rampton applied to change his case

after the cross-examined version

 

186

00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,240

of MacDonald's witnesses on nutrition.

 

187

00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:08,040

The cross-examination was devastating

so far as McDonald's were concerned,

 

188

00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,280

and many top lawyers

would have been very proud

 

189

00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,320

to have got the answers

that Dave and Helen managed to get out

 

190

00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,440

of MacDonald's experts,

and as a result, Mr.

 

191

00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,080

Rampton had to change the move.

 

192

00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,360

The goalposts of his case,

instead of saying

 

193

00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,720

the particular phrase, meant one thing.

 

194

00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,240

He now argues that it means

something completely different.

 

195

00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,960

One striking part of this case

 

196

00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,600

has been the extent to which McDonald's

have been prepared to infiltrate

 

197

00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,640

the group London Greenpeace

to find out information.

 

198

00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,680

And the full picture has only emerged

as the case has gone on.

 

199

00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,280

And it's quite clear

that McDonald's put spies

 

200

00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,920

within the group who were collating

all sorts of information.

 

201

00:16:54,600 --> 00:17:00,120

It emerged also that those people

were playing their full part in the group

 

202

00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,520

and were doing everything

that it's alleged

 

203

00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,520

Dave and Helen were doing to promote

the leaflet in question,

 

204

00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,600

including handing it out

and putting it in envelopes.

 

205

00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,040

And at that point it became obvious

that they were fully participating

 

206

00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,560

and that therefore

they ought to play their part

 

207

00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,800

in paying any damages,

if there are any, to McDonald's.

 

208

00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,280

So it raised a double issue.

 

209

00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,440

One was if McDonald's

were really generating this,

 

210

00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,440

weren't

they the true cause of the distribution?

 

211

00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,600

And secondly,

didn't they ought to pay for any damage

 

212

00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,080

they caused by their own actions

through their own spies?

 

213

00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,360

And so they were joined

in the case as defendants?

 

214

00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,600

Was that too long and willfully

 

215

00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:49,800

the possible inclusion

 

216

00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:55,360

of the agents of McDonald's in the case

raises a very interesting legal question,

 

217

00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,240

because in a nutshell, McDonald's

argument against Dave and Helen is that by

 

218

00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,240

participating and being members of London

Greenpeace, you have distributed leaflet,

 

219

00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:10,560

but it now emerges that the agents

attended more meetings, participated

 

220

00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:15,000

more fully and distributed the leaflet

more freely than Dave and Helen ever did.

 

221

00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:19,280

And on that basis,

the argument in law must run

 

222

00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,400

that McDonald's have not only consented

to the distribution, but ought to be

 

223

00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,680

liable for any damages that they say

they've caused their reputation.

 

224

00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,480

The camp, the counterclaim

was extremely important for two reasons.

 

225

00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,280

Firstly, it puts some emphasis on the need

 

226

00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,360

for McDonald's to not was bumped up to

at some stage, wasn't it.

 

227

00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:41,640

Hello.

 

228

00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:45,360

The camp.

 

229

00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:48,840

The counterclaim

is extremely important to this case

 

230

00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,400

because it changes the emphasis.

 

231

00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,080

It demands traits that Dave

 

232

00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,720

and Helen are not making things up

and they're not lying.

 

233

00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,720

And that's what

lies at the heart of the counterclaim.

 

234

00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,440

It demonstrates that they are genuinely

and honestly trying

 

235

00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,560

to put across the truth

as they understand it to be in court.

 

236

00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,760

And there's a thousand miles between that

and someone who who simply lying.

 

237

00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,240

And that's

why it's so important for the case.

 

238

00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,640

Yeah,

 

239

00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:20,760

I mean, there's a danger

in that obviously,

 

240

00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,080

and that's that they lose

the counterclaims as well.

 

241

00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:24,200

Yeah,

 

242

00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,000

the counterclaim is very important

in the sense that until Lewis

 

243

00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,400

a counterclaim, McDonald's

were able to sit back and say to Dave

 

244

00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,240

and how would you prove it? You prove it.

 

245

00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,960

And essentially to cast them in the role

 

246

00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,960

of being the party

that was somehow in the wrong.

 

247

00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,240

Once there's a counterclaim,

there was another focus to the case,

 

248

00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,480

and that was

how will McDonald's conducting this case?

 

249

00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,640

And what were their business practices

and should they really have been going

 

250

00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,960

as far as they did in printing leaflets,

making all sorts of allegations

 

251

00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,440

about the way Dave and Helen

were were trying to prepare the defense?

 

252

00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,320

And so suddenly the scrutiny was on them

and they had to answer

 

253

00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:06,440

for what they'd done.

 

254

00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:11,200

So it very much turned the tables,

the counterclaims extremely important

 

255

00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:17,520

because it changed the focus of the case

until the counterclaim came along.

 

256

00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,000

McDonald's were able to sit back and cast

Dave and Helen

 

257

00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,760

in the in the role of

the people in the wrong, the people in

 

258

00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,760

the dock who had to defend themselves

and show that they were telling the truth.

 

259

00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,520

Once the counterclaim came along,

McDonald's had to suddenly explain

 

260

00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,280

why it was they were saying

that the leaflet was lies.

 

261

00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,200

In other words, they had to explain

their business practices

 

262

00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,880

were not as described in the leaflet

and produce evidence to that effect.

 

263

00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,040

Now, in some areas,

for example, nutrition

 

264

00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,040

that had an amazing effect on the case

 

265

00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,080

and pushed McDonald's very much onto

the back foot in my opinion.

 

266

00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,080

In a sense what the counterclaim did

was to focus attention

 

267

00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,680

on MacDonald's business practices and

 

268

00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,640

I know that's not the way

 

269

00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,160

in a sense, what the counterclaim did

 

270

00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,240

was to force McDonald's to be accountable

for their business practices.

 

271

00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,120

And that has been a major feature

of the case and the coverage of the case

 

272

00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:34,480

has been along those lines, and that has

obviously been extremely unhelpful.

 

273

00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,240

Not all,

 

274

00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,080

but the most important conclusion

that can be drawn about the counterclaim

 

275

00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,800

is that McDonald's are now on

 

276

00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,800

trial for their business practices

 

277

00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,840

and the focus is less on Dave

and Howlett and more on them.

 

278

00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,360

And I think that's how the public perceive

the issues.

 

279

00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:57,240

It's really

whether McDonald's can now show

 

280

00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,520

that these allegations

in the leaflet are unfounded.

 

281

00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:01,600

And if they can't,

 

282

00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,520

they run a very serious risk

in the public's eye, in my opinion.

 

283

00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,760

The inside view

on the trial from the legal profession

 

284

00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,080

is that McDonald's

 

285

00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,440

could never justify their position

 

286

00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,800

in law

because it's such a one sided battle.

 

287

00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,280

The I'll run that again, if I may.

 

288

00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,160

The inside view

on the trial of the legal profession

 

289

00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,680

is that this case

shows the absurdity of the libel laws

 

290

00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,760

and that after this case,

things are going to have to change.

 

291

00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,840

You cannot have the longest case

in civil history

 

292

00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,040

and in all likelihood, criminal history,

 

293

00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,080

where one side has a top legal team

 

294

00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,160

and the others have no resources

whatsoever.

 

295

00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:53,280

So whatever the result, this case

 

296

00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,280

will change the future of libel law.

 

297

00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,160

One of the problems with the law

as it is now, i.e.

 

298

00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,240

that there's no legal aid for defendants

 

299

00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,240

and you have to have a lot of money

to hire libel lawyers,

 

300

00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,080

is that there's a tendency

on the part of those

 

301

00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:15,640

that have a lot of money to suppress

criticism from those that don't, because

 

302

00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,800

it's not a question of whether you're

telling the truth or not that matters.

 

303

00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,200

It's whether you have the courage

 

304

00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,200

or the money

to defend what you say in court.

 

305

00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,960

And in my experience, many,

many people who can back up

 

306

00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,080

what they're saying nevertheless don't

defend themselves in libel proceedings

 

307

00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,280

because they fear the costs so much.

 

308

00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,160

Yes, what I could say is I think this case

 

309

00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,600

would have cost over £1,000,000

 

310

00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,080

in fees and an ordinary case would run.

 

311

00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,040

It would be at least 50,000,

probably more.

 

312

00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,840

One of the obvious problems with a system

 

313

00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,920

where there's no legal aid

for people in libel proceedings

 

314

00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,800

is that there's a tendency

on the part of those that have money

 

315

00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,240

to use libel as a means for suppressing

 

316

00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,840

information and opinions

that they don't approve of

 

317

00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:41,040

because the reality is not

that if you genuinely think

 

318

00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,360

something to be true, you can go along,

have your day in court and say so.

 

319

00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,640

The reality is that many, many people

who are making good points,

 

320

00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,880

who are genuinely expressing

their opinion, will be so fearful

 

321

00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,960

of the costs in libel proceedings

that they will settle out of court,

 

322

00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,240

even though they may think they would win

because they're risking huge costs.

 

323

00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,080

The costs of an ordinary libel action

will usually exceed £50,000.

 

324

00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,200

And in the case of Dave and Helen,

the costs on both sides

 

325

00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,440

would have been over £1,000,000.

 

326

00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:19,680

The problem

 

327

00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,560

with the law is it now

is for libel, is that it's

 

328

00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,720

not a battle for the truth in court,

it's a battle of the purse.

 

329

00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,040

If you have the money,

 

330

00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,960

you can hire a good legal team

and you can hope for victory.

 

331

00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,280

If you have no money, you can't hire

a legal team and you run huge risks

 

332

00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:43,240

because if you lose, you could pay

the costs of the person that's suing you.

 

333

00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,120

Now, that is a huge incentive

by those that can afford to pay lawyers

 

334

00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,080

to suppress information and opinions

of those that they know can't.

 

335

00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,360

And many people will withdraw from cases

 

336

00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,360

or settle cases

because they fear the costs.

 

337

00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,320

And the costs of most libel cases

 

338

00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,200

would be in excess of £50,000

 

339

00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,360

and had Dave and Helen

instructed lawyers on their behalf,

 

340

00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,640

the costs would have

clearly exceeded £1,000,000.

 

341

00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,560

I think the idea that multinationals

can sue for libel

 

342

00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:22,080

fundamentally violates

the rights of people to express opinion

 

343

00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,440

because a multinational is not like you

or I is not a person

 

344

00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,680

that has a reputation in the sense

that people will think greater

 

345

00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,680

or lesser of them is a business entity

 

346

00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:39,000

and they make money and there's no

can I start this one again?

 

347

00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,000

Because it's actually a really important

point and I want to make.

 

348

00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:47,360

I said that the absurdity is

 

349

00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,880

that it's assumed

that reputation is lowered when there's

 

350

00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,480

been nothing to suggest that they've lost

the sale of even one hamburger.

 

351

00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:56,600

And that's the important thing.

 

352

00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,600

That's

why multinationals did not be able to sue.

 

353

00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,920

So can I just run that again?

 

354

00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:07,920

The absurdity of multinationals

being able to sue for libel

 

355

00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:13,080

is that they don't have to prove

their reputation is lowered.

 

356

00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,400

One can understand how an individual

might

 

357

00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,080

be viewed differently by society

if certain things are said about them.

 

358

00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,560

But a multinational

has only a trading capacity,

 

359

00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,480

and yet in this case,

McDonald's can sue for what they say

 

360

00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,800

is the lowering their reputation

without having to prove or show

 

361

00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,640

that they've lost the sale

of a single hamburger

 

362

00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,720

as a result of the leaflet

being distributed.

 

363

00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,800

And in my view, that is an unwarranted

 

364

00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,800

intrusion onto freedom of expression.

 

365

00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:44,880

And I just think

 

366

00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,080

it's very

 

367

00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,440

interesting to see that the courts

have now recognized

 

368

00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,640

that government departments

 

369

00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,640

and local authorities can't sue for libel

 

370

00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,880

on the basis

that it would stifle free speech.

 

371

00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,960

In my view, the same ought to apply

for multinationals.

 

372

00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,040

It's a competitive world

 

373

00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,040

out there and they can survive or fall.

 

374

00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,960

No lawsuits, crime.

 

375

00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,480

I'll just make the short point.

 

376

00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,480

Charlotte also,

 

377

00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,200

it's interesting to see that

 

378

00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,520

this case comes at a very time

 

379

00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,560

Let me start letting in.

 

380

00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,880

One very interesting aspect of this case

 

381

00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,560

is that whilst McDonald's and Dave

and Helen have been arguing in court,

 

382

00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,160

the courts have decided

in a different case

 

383

00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,640

that local authorities

shouldn't be able to sue for libel.

 

384

00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,720

And the reasoning of the court

is that a body such as a local authority

 

385

00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,600

doesn't have the kind of reputation

that needs protecting

 

386

00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,720

and that to bring libel proceedings

on behalf of a body

 

387

00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,640

like that would stifle free speech.

 

388

00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,400

And that that's something that

free speech, in other words, outweighs

 

389

00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,680

that right to their reputation.

 

390

00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,200

That's crap as well. So that was

 

391

00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,440

the argument

 

392

00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,920

that local authorities

don't need to protect their reputation

 

393

00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,440

and the free speech of the public

is far more important,

 

394

00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,360

applies equally to multinationals

and the free speech of members

 

395

00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,360

of the public to say what they think

about the multinationals,

 

396

00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,880

if far outweighs the right

that they have to sue for defamation.

 

397

00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,840

In my view, the law should be changed

to prohibit multinationals

 

398

00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,840

from bringing proceedings such as these.

 

399

00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,080

All right.

 

400

00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,960

Yes, I'll just say I can't

I can't envisage any situation in which

 

401

00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,160

a multinational would not be able

to defend itself with its own resources

 

402

00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,160

without recourse to the courts.

 

403

00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,720

The reasoning of the court

that it's important to be able

 

404

00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:05,080

to criticize local authorities

applies equally to multinationals.

 

405

00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,480

They wield great power

throughout the world.

 

406

00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,160

McDonald's is well-known

in many, many countries,

 

407

00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,840

and it's important

that the public are able to criticize

 

408

00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,560

McDonald's or any other multinational

and to do so freely.

 

409

00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,400

And I can't see that

any multinational genuinely

 

410

00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,680

needs to use the courts as a forum

for getting its arguments across.

 

411

00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,040

I know what it means.

 

412

00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:44,280

One insight that anyone can take from

 

413

00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,040

this case is how unfair

the legal system can be in this country.

 

414

00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,440

We pride ourselves

on having a legal system

 

415

00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:53,640

which is the best in the world,

 

416

00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,360

and we pride ourselves on the fact

that we've all got free speech.

 

417

00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,080

But in reality, of course,

that simply isn't the situation.

 

418

00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,960

If you can't put up the money

to run a case such as this,

 

419

00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,360

then you really can't say what you like

 

420

00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,120

and it's the battle of those

that can afford

 

421

00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,200

to run libel proceedings

against those that can't,

 

422

00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,160

not the battle of truth

that this case throws up.

 

423

00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:21,600

That's something I used before.

 

424

00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,600

But you probably perfect.

 

425

00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,520

I think very little

like can be given to the verdict.

 

426

00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,240

It really isn't

 

427

00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:36,480

to achieve very much to win this point

or that in a case

 

428

00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,160

when everybody knows other witnesses

could have been called in.

 

429

00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,840

If you sit back

 

430

00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,560

and think about some of the witnesses

that could have come on behalf

 

431

00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,480

of Dave and Helen, but didn't

because nobody could pay their airfare,

 

432

00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,840

the verdict pales into insignificance.

 

433

00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,640

It's meaningless

if both sides had had all the witnesses

 

434

00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,720

they wanted, then

a true verdict might have been possible.

 

435

00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,160

But with the best will in the world,

 

436

00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,480

the judge can only give a verdict

according to the evidence.

 

437

00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,840

And the evidence costs money.

 

438

00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,160

And we all know the fact

that the money wasn't there

 

439

00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,520

for Dave and Helen

to call witnesses. They wanted.

 

440

00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,120

There's clearly a lot of

 

441

00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,120

work to do

in the final stages of the case.

 

442

00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,000

There's been over two years

worth of evidence,

 

443

00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160

and that's all been carefully

recorded in transcripts.

 

444

00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,280

That all has to be collated

and put in a legal framework.

 

445

00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,440

That's a colossal task.

 

446

00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,120

And we'll be trying to bring together

a team of volunteer lawyers

 

447

00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,600

to sift through the evidence and help

 

448

00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,600

with the legal arguments

 

449

00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,320

so that.

 

450

00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,320

Right, you want me to run million?

 

451

00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,200

The final stages of the case

are obviously extremely important

 

452

00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,800

because after two years of evidence,

what has to happen now is the distillation

 

453

00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,800

of all the facts into a legal framework,

 

454

00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,800

which is itself extremely complicated.

 

455

00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,560

There are only ten or so weeks

for that process to take place,

 

456

00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,800

and it's been necessary

to try and bring together as many people

 

457

00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,920

as possible to work on the arguments,

 

458

00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,840

to pull lawyers in on a voluntary basis

and ask them for their time

 

459

00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,080

and resources to help with this task.

 

460

00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,320

But it is extremely important because it's

obviously the way in which Dave

 

461

00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,240

and Helen are going to put their case

in their final submissions to the court.

 

462

00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:40,360

I don't know.

 

463

00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:41,520

It's a nice I don't know.

 

464

00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,840

I don't know. I don't know.

 

465

00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,440

I mean, what tends to happen

is everybody said, yes, yes, I'll help.

 

466

00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,200

And then of course,

when it comes to the day

 

467

00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,200

when they needed that,

they're never that.

 

468

00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:54,720

Let me turn it around.

 

469

00:34:54,720 --> 00:34:59,120

It's a feature of this case

that it's only been possible

 

470

00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,040

to bring together

a team of legal at the very end.

 

471

00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:09,120

Before the case had so much publicity,

there were some very lonely days

 

472

00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,040

when the meetings were literally me,

Dave and Helen

 

473

00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,160

for months and months and months.

 

474

00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,880

It's very nice now to see that

their battle in court has really

 

475

00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:26,280

the imagination, not only of the public,

but of lawyers and has their consciences.

 

476

00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,680

And they've come along now to help

with the preparations for the final stage.

 

477

00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,280

So what have you gained personally from

 

478

00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,760

having was first sight of that

 

479

00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,200

one of the most interesting

aspects of this case,

 

480

00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,360

as far as I'm concerned, has been to watch

 

481

00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,240

and observe two people with courage

 

482

00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,520

fighting a case and to see that even

with limited resources,

 

483

00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,080

even I'm able to bring all the evidence

you want to to court.

 

484

00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,520

You can win significant victories

 

485

00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,560

through a belief in what you're saying,

a belief in free speech,

 

486

00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,360

and the courage

to continually put your your case forward.

 

487

00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,760

And I've learned a lot through watching

Dave and Helen do that.

 

488

00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,160

It's very difficult to predict

 

489

00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,800

what will happen when this case ends.

 

490

00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,080

I think it's unlikely

 

491

00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,080

that the verdict will see

the end of the leaflet

 

492

00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:34,400

and because people genuinely believe

in free speech

 

493

00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,160

and feel that this case has been

an attempt to suppress free speech,

 

494

00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,640

the could

well be mass defiance of the courts

 

495

00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,440

and the mass distribution of the leaflet

 

496

00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,520

is very difficult to see

what McDonald's could do in that situation

 

497

00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,680

and very difficult to see what the courts

could do faced with that situation.

 

498

00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,480

So it may be in the end

that free speech will will win.

 

499

00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,680

Once the closing speeches are finished.

 

500

00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,800

The judge then has a very difficult task

because he has to look at the submissions

 

501

00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,400

that have been made to him

and consider the evidence and try to come

 

502

00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,560

to the right decision on all of the points

that have been raised.

 

503

00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,920

He's bound to find on some points

from McDonald's

 

504

00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,400

and in my view he will find for Dave

and Helen on other points.

 

505

00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:31,920

And when he's done

 

506

00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,560

that, he's then got to decide

if he's going to award any damages.

 

507

00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,080

And if he does, how large

an amount of damage is he awards.

 

508

00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,000

Now, clearly, if he awards a huge amount

against Dave and Helen,

 

509

00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,400

it will bankrupt them and they won't

have any prospect of paying.

 

510

00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:52,000

If, on the

 

511

00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,560

other hand, he orders a small amount,

McDonald's will feel

 

512

00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,720

that they're name hasn't been vindicated

and that it was all a pointless exercise.

 

513

00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,720

So he has a very difficult

task of getting the damages right

 

514

00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,080

as well as the verdict right.

 

515

00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,200

Well, I do think there's one point worth

making, and it's this that

 

516

00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,520

the stakes are now so high for McDonald's

 

517

00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,880

that if they lose on any one issue,

 

518

00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,960

it's going to be devastating for them

because given their resources,

 

519

00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,280

given the arguments they've mounted, they

they think they ought to win

 

520

00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,160

and therefore they don't,

then it really is devastating.

 

521

00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:30,040

I mean, I think that's quite good

 

522

00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,720

because then if there is a point

at which on which they lose,

 

523

00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:35,720

I mean, my my prediction is McDonald's

will win probably about three quarters,

 

524

00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,760

but there will be some significant points

on which Dave and Hallam with

 

525

00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,360

and that that can be turned

into a real victory for Dave

 

526

00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,360

and Helen on the basis that McDonald's

ought to have won everything

 

527

00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:46,600

because I just shoot.

 

528

00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:49,800

The stakes in this

 

529

00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,800

case now

are extremely high for McDonald's.

 

530

00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,200

They've had the resources,

they've had the legal team

 

531

00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:01,000

and they've had the strategy,

which they think will enable them to win.

 

532

00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,720

If they now lose on any one point,

it will be devastating.

 

533

00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:10,600

It will demonstrate that their arguments

were not good arguments,

 

534

00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,800

and it will demonstrate that Dave

and Helen were right.

 

535

00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,360

And what was put in the leaflet was right

and that they were trying

 

536

00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:23,440

to stop the publication of something

which was true

 

537

00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,440

and therefore ought

to have been published.

 

538

00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,080

So I'll just shoot.

 

539

00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,080

One of the reasons

that I wanted to be involved

 

540

00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,120

in this case

and to give it as much time as I could

 

541

00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,960

is because it raises

the fundamental question of whether

 

542

00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,200

people are really free

to say what they genuinely believe.

 

543

00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,840

And I think the imbalance in court

at the moment means that they can't.

 

544

00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,720

Now, Dave and Helen wanted

freedom of expression,

 

545

00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:26,880

and that's what they're fighting for.

 

546

00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,680

But not only that, the issues around which

they're fighting extremely important.

 

547

00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,280

The nutrition issue is an example

 

548

00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,360

where there's a great deal of evidence

 

549

00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,520

to support what they're saying,

and that evidence ought to be heard.

 

550

00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,920

And I wanted to do my part

to make sure the argument was put

 

551

00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,160

as best it could be

with the limited resources that they had.

 

552

00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,920

Okay,

 

553

00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,360

We're going to hear this history.

 

554

00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,360

One word,

 

555

00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:22,240

just as

 

556

00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,400

yeah, I'm find

 

557

00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:52,880

it's got 10 minutes.

 

558

00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,880

So we go will

 

559

00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,280

we get through to one man?

 

560

00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,360

But number seven, page three, four,

 

561

00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:05,320

three.

 

562

00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,320

Feel it is my

 

563

00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,080

not what I wanted was not a concept

 

564

00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,840

just for enabling our witnesses

a better word.

 

565

00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,200

You just didn't know

it. It's not unlikely.

 

566

00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,000

You witnesses? Yeah. Okay.

 

567

00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,520

That's just what he's saying. Statements.

 

568

00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,520

Okay, so fine with know.

 

569

00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,440

I want to go.

 

570

00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,640

Yeah, I'm gonna do something slow.

 

571

00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:05,320

Well, you got to finish this off.

 

572

00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:05,640

Courts.

 

573

00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,520

They've had overindulgence.

We've had no lawyer.

 

574

00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,080

yeah? Yeah. Don't do that. Don't do that.

 

575

00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,960

Plosives come back ferocious.

 

576

00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,960

I can do that.

 

577

00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:19,320

Okay.

 

578

00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,320

Anything else? I don't know that.

 

579

00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:23,320

We've got time to do it now.

 

580

00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,320

Well, what have we got on the stuff?

 

581

00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,320

Evidence is standard.

 

582

00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,120

We've got.

 

583

00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,480

I think we've got something on

which is going to interest somewhere.

 

584

00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:38,720

Somebody in there. Yeah.

 

585

00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:41,760

I've various tendencies so see

 

586

00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,120

offenders

and yeah, I've done that, I've noted that.

 

587

00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,120

Anyway

 

588

00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:52,720

publication now you do not have

 

589

00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,720

I didn't

I wanted to discuss with you on that

 

590

00:44:56,720 --> 00:45:00,480

but did the

what do you want to come back later.

 

591

00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,480

Have you got a document

but a working document.

 

592

00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,160

I've got it on disk here.

 

593

00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,080

Yeah. Useful. Not just for me.

 

594

00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,040

Just take on to mine

so I can have a look at it.

 

595

00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,040

yeah, yeah,

 

596

00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:14,760

yeah.

 

597

00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,560

So? So.

 

598

00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:17,520

Which was fun.

 

599

00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:18,400

So. Song There was it?

 

600

00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,400

Yeah.

 

601

00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:41,720

Yeah.

 

602

00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:44,720

Hi, Audrey.

 

603

00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:45,400

I think time.

 

604

00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,600

Yeah. All right, that's great. So.

 

605

00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,320

But. But.

 

606

00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,400

Okay,

 

607

00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:54,920

I'll play that.

 

608

00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,880

We work through this later on. So.

 

609

00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,880

Yeah, just a quick note is time

 

610

00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,960

coverage from the Times Friday

and it goes publication

 

611

00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,960

is that one you okay?

 

612

00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,280

Milligan?

 

613

00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,280

Yeah, I got

 

614

00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:14,440

this.

 

615

00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,360

It's not on the computer.

 

616

00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,400

Is this taken from the stuff up here?

 

617

00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,720

Some of it is some of the things

where some of that stuff

 

618

00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:23,720

I've written myself,

but there's that right member on

 

619

00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,720

show me to take it onto my desk

 

620

00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:27,600

and then have a look at it

and we can discuss it on the phone.

 

621

00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:28,480

Yeah, Yeah.

 

622

00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,480

If you have an

 

623

00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,880

there's no point in me

looking to leave finished in you're

 

624

00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,320

happy it when it What are you going to do

get together tonight on.

 

625

00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,160

I don't know if you know so

 

626

00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,880

supposed to that

 

627

00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,080

when you get to publication tomorrow

 

628

00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,200

you know probably

 

629

00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:36,400

yeah yeah

 

630

00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,640

because

 

631

00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:47,000

for some reason

 

632

00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,640

I haven't got a copy of

I've got my own here.

 

633

00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:54,360

I'm grateful for Timothy Atkins

and barrister for advice and introduction.

 

634

00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:59,120

This chapter discussed in

the closed world.

 

635

00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:01,440

We haven't got a copy.

 

636

00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:01,920

You've got me.

 

637

00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,560

For some reason,

there's someone's nicked house. really?

 

638

00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,280

Yeah. I'll see if I can find it.

 

639

00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,200

Have you got my.

 

640

00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:10,120

You've got your Duncan.

 

641

00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:16,880

You invited him to come here.

 

642

00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:18,720

Okay, Well, should we.

 

643

00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:21,160

Do you want to sort of

go through it on the phone? That's right.

 

644

00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:21,760

Yeah.

 

645

00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,960

So if I just ask you about specific,

I mean, maybe if you read it

 

646

00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,640

and if there's something

that you think's wrong with it,

 

647

00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,760

then make a note of it,

and then I'll just.

 

648

00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,200

Where are you going?

To being home. Yeah, right. Okay.

 

649

00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:34,000

Right.

 

650

00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,320

What about the rest of this?

 

651

00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,240

So publication is with

 

652

00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:40,160

and without really consent.

 

653

00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:41,600

You did it with consent as well.

 

654

00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,480

Pretty good, right?

 

655

00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:44,480

There's a note on those.

 

656

00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,960

There's not a lot of

there's not a lot to say. Well,

 

657

00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,880

why don't they say copies of everything

everyone else has done on consent?

 

658

00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,880

What have we got to say over

and above what we said on the

 

659

00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,480

on the application to join third parties

 

660

00:48:58,040 --> 00:48:58,560

or not law?

 

661

00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,880

I mean, maybe just

get the transcript of that then we do.

 

662

00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:05,280

Have you got that?

 

663

00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,520

Yeah. Yeah.

 

664

00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:08,800

Why don't you just use them.

 

665

00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:09,840

Yeah. Yeah. It's up to him.

 

666

00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,840

And so she's, she's doing that. So

 

667

00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,200

I actually said

 

668

00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,360

it's quite a lot

the other day when, when I was doing

 

669

00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,320

the, doing the planning speeches.

 

670

00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:25,680

Right.

 

671

00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:26,960

So what does that mean.

 

672

00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,960

I mean meaning they're all

 

673

00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:37,280

meaningless.

 

674

00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,920

The only meaning he's found so far

is the nutrition one isn't it.

 

675

00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,840

Yeah,

but he's given all kinds of indications.

 

676

00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,320

She doesn't mean like this thing

about some.

 

677

00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,320

I'm not asking about,

you know, interpreting everything.

 

678

00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,200

The fact it must relate to McDonald's.

Right.

 

679

00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,280

Rather than just then part of an industry.

 

680

00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,560

She's really.

 

681

00:49:58,800 --> 00:49:58,960

Yeah.

 

682

00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,960

I mean,

 

683

00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:02,960

absurd.

 

684

00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,960

And so spell said I can't be right

 

685

00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,320

binding domain so what we're saying

 

686

00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:11,720

I mean we just have to leave this alight

 

687

00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:14,720

so maybe even that Time now for me,

 

688

00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:16,480

I'll try.

But what are you going to do now?

 

689

00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,080

I'm trying to expand on me.

 

690

00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:19,360

I've got lots of other things,

 

691

00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,280

so I've got to add all these appendices

and rewrite them and stuff

 

692

00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:24,080

because some of them have

 

693

00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,080

been quite badly written.

 

694

00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:29,960

But unemployment is going to drop.

 

695

00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,960

It is not particularly brilliant

because it's not done overall.

 

696

00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,120

No, but the volume is not that of he's

 

697

00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,120

meant to be getting me stuff on breaks,

but I'll rewrite stuff the stuff in it.

 

698

00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:48,680

So she might as well.

 

699

00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,920

We need to expand that, expand

 

700

00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,280

the admissibility of evidence.

 

701

00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:05,400

That's Jason stuff.

 

702

00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,680

He just says it's all in just fine.

 

703

00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,280

Everyone in that grade

that really now now So

 

704

00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,680

you need to do it unless

 

705

00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,680

you can do it so dealt with massive win

 

706

00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,760

over the right way

 

707

00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,960

in terms of the evidence

we've we've kind of dealt with it

 

708

00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,960

quite a lot

 

709

00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,520

in the first time On damage on damages.

 

710

00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,520

You said you've got ten points list of No,

I haven't done it yet.

 

711

00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,120

So you've got that to put it like

 

712

00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:43,200

this.

 

713

00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,600

There's just so many different grounds.

 

714

00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,160

That's

something that maybe you can think of.

 

715

00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,480

Any grounds

we can come back to that maybe tomorrow.

 

716

00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:52,960

You know,

 

717

00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,560

someone just points

 

718

00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,560

to, Why didn't you come in on the way back

tomorrow?

 

719

00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,120

You know,

 

720

00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,560

you've got a conference

from been called the High Court

 

721

00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,560

information about same time, right. So

 

722

00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:12,520

but ring first.

 

723

00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,520

Just take some.

 

724

00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:16,880

Okay.

 

725

00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,960

Well, look, do you want to tell you

of ten points on damages

 

726

00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,560

and then just read them

over on the phone to me?

 

727

00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,200

Yeah, yeah,

 

728

00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:25,280

yeah.

 

729

00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,280

First check with care.

 

730

00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,480

And if I call you about publication.

 

731

00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:32,760

Yeah. If you.

 

732

00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,360

If you have a ring of it. Yeah. Sorry.

Read of it.

 

733

00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,360

Yeah. But

 

734

00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:40,120

okay.

 

735

00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,320

Counter-claim if you've got something

on the counterclaim way,

 

736

00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:45,920

what's happening with that.

 

737

00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,560

And this comes claim submissions.

 

738

00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,800

What happens

 

739

00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,920

was is that like some Jonathan

Crystal did.

 

740

00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,800

Yeah.

 

741

00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:06,360

Yeah.

 

742

00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,240

I gave one to Kieran.

 

743

00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:10,480

Well anything in their work.

 

744

00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,760

I mean we've all said we've

sent a lot of stuff over there anyway so

 

745

00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:18,560

okay.

 

746

00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,560

Okay.

 

747

00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:25,840

Okay.

 

748

00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,440

What since I call you and

 

749

00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,440

I mean I'm going to be, I'm

 

750

00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,240

Yeah.

 

751

00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:42,400

Do you want to fax me

those ten damages things so by seven.

 

752

00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:43,080

Right.

 

753

00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:43,600

Yeah.

 

754

00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,720

That's what I'll I'll look on that next.

 

755

00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:48,920

And I didn't do damages for

you had you to call

 

756

00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,960

for until about six

 

757

00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,960

and then I got, I have a quick

read through of what I want this morning.

 

758

00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:58,400

You can call me on the direct

line tonight if you want a

 

759

00:53:59,720 --> 00:54:02,040

special treat for one month.

 

760

00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:03,760

Yeah.

 

761

00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,120

I think there's two things.

 

762

00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,680

All of us have long term solutions.

 

763

00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:11,720

I think I need just from.

 

764

00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:19,280

Is it worth going and

 

765

00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,120

have you got me or I look this morning,

it's not until this morning.

 

766

00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:26,040

Do you want to take that

then focus committee?

 

767

00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:27,520

Yeah. I'm not sure.

 

768

00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,560

There's there is a lot to think about.

 

769

00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,000

You don't have time to read all the stuff,

of course,

 

770

00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,080

but the force from A to B

won't happen at Chambers library.

 

771

00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,080

But some

 

772

00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:41,520

this saw guys.

 

773

00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:42,600

Some choice I might take. Yeah.

 

774

00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,280

Do you want to take it? Yeah, I've got.

So what's all this stuff?

 

775

00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,880

Yeah, that's all yours

is. This is one photocopy.

 

776

00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,880

So. Yeah.

So I run it through the shed now.

 

777

00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:52,880

Yeah. In fact, if you can do

 

778

00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,720

full copies, that would be better

 

779

00:54:59,720 --> 00:55:02,040

to you know,

 

780

00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,240

for coming up

 

781

00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:05,200

on. Okay.

 

782

00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,760

Just get

 

783

00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:09,160

groups

 

784

00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:15,440

that come from the.

 

785

00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:23,240

I never know that Atkinson is working on

 

786

00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:27,480

this.

 

787

00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,480

I know it's.

 

788

00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:39,040

You said you'd look for anything

 

789

00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,200

about cross law from experts

and so we should discuss it.

 

790

00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:43,720

See what you want to take that?

 

791

00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:45,240

Well, not really, no.

 

792

00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:47,800

I thought in case you don't,

you find something in it.

 

793

00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,280

There's some useful stuff

and I'll give it off.

 

794

00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:52,920

Let's compare the five it or.

 

795

00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,040

Yeah,

you can photocopy now if you want. Yeah.

 

796

00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:56,760

Yeah.

Well shall we go to the main plot. Yeah.

 

797

00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,760

Because I've got some stuff on experts but

 

798

00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,000

some of the good stuff.

 

799

00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,000

All right.

 

800

00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,880

You here's to list all cases about a

 

801

00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,880

representative about.

 

802

00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,640

Yeah, the unincorporated decisions.

 

803

00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,640

The judge is saying don't

 

804

00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,840

think it's about

whether it be it as a representative,

 

805

00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:26,280

not about whether or not you can serve

because you were involved.

 

806

00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,320

Your involvement

was therefore your responsibility.

 

807

00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,920

But it must be

same thing about it as well.

 

808

00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,840

But the point is that since the first

result you don't know many good cases that

 

809

00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,040

you should have to be complete

and it's not something

 

810

00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,040

that you want to set in a lot of debate

on how to implement stuff,

 

811

00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:47,240

even though

 

812

00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:50,840

I'm going to just argue it's common sense.

 

813

00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,680

Yeah, well, otherwise it does

just a lot of the same things as well.

 

814

00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,040

Yeah,

 

815

00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,120

but if he doesn't, we can always

 

816

00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,120

bring them all. So.

 

817

00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:01,840

Yeah.

 

818

00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,840

So can you keep hold of cards right now?

 

819

00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:06,440

Yeah. I'm still going to

 

820

00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:16,520

look right.

 

821

00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:20,280

Okay.

 

822

00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:21,560

Well,

 

823

00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,560

look, I'm not following up on

 

824

00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:47,240

the same sentence,

 

825

00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:12,000

but I suppose

 

826

00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:15,720

it's keeping

 

827

00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,280

you doing a massive catch.

 

828

00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,280

Well, photocopying as well

 

829

00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,000

is almost like doing your first company.

 

830

00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,000

Well, I mean, I'm going to go.

 

831

00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:28,120

Well, that's good.

 

832

00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,200

But I was going to give you

this custom products.

 

833

00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:34,240

I've got a couple

 

834

00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,680

with them and I make, you know,

 

835

00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:05,880

I'm ready.

 

836

00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:07,880

Okay? Yeah. Okay.

 

837

00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,880

Okay. Go.

 

838

00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:44,640

Right?

 

839

00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:44,880

Yeah.

 

840

00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,600

I mean, I most

 

841

00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,120

certainly get all members that have

 

842

00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:50,800

some of them.

 

843

00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,800

Well,

I was there for some up in houses, so

 

844

00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,280

that's a lot of money.

 

845

00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:03,680

Can you know these interpretations of

actually

 

846

01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,680

is that anything with that

you must be polite to McDonald.

 

847

01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:11,600

So if you say multinationals do X, Y

and Z, then this goes,

 

848

01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,160

yeah, if you say

multinationals are starving world poor,

 

849

01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:19,320

then that may involve the middleman

from the North Pole

 

850

01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:23,600

factory by McDonald

actually groups it certainly do anything

 

851

01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:25,640

we just think about that.

 

852

01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,360

I mean

 

853

01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:31,360

so we do a documentary,

 

854

01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,240

you know

 

855

01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,000

how many times you're 12

 

856

01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,640

It doesn't really that far fetched sales,

 

857

01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,640

the stuff that you could do, it's

all of your supply.

 

858

01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,280

I thought you've done loads of stuff.

 

859

01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,200

You can bugger

 

860

01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:02,480

it all.

 

861

01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,480

Small print though, and concisely written.

 

862

01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,240

You. Yeah, well, very

 

863

01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,840

loose cut, loose production.

 

864

01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,840

I'm getting busy, but I

 

865

01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:16,280

just.

 

866

01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,280

It's just to.

 

867

01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:47,280

Somebody did tell us that.

 

868

01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:50,040

But whether or not it's. Yeah.

 

869

01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:52,240

You know, we can never

 

870

01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:53,960

say and I think know

 

871

01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,960

I was pretty you know it's really

 

872

01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:00,360

relative market

 

873

01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:01,960

anyway

 

874

01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:04,120

we're just telling the truth

 

875

01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,120

You can't stand here.

 

876

01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:17,680

Okay Right.

 

877

01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:19,000

So that is in evidence.

 

878

01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,000

The 1997 agreement.

 

879

01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,440

Yeah.

 

880

01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:31,840

Did you check that European stuff?

 

881

01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:33,640

Yeah.

 

882

01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:36,640

And there's nothing else? No,

 

883

01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,600

definitely

 

884

01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:47,240

one great chunk.

 

885

01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:54,520

because obviously they're

 

886

01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:57,520

going to argue that data.

 

887

01:04:57,520 --> 01:04:59,560

there's no just so there's no evidence.

 

888

01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:02,320

It's just not

 

889

01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,320

well put in evidence or scandalous.

 

890

01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:08,800

There's no credible

evidence is no credible that.

 

891

01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:09,720

Yeah.

 

892

01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,600

So I remember them

 

893

01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:14,520

telling me about making changes.

 

894

01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,560

We can't ever change outcomes

as long as I write them all down and do.

 

895

01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:20,520

Yeah. What makes you think you do this?

 

896

01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:22,880

Well, you can write more down,

but I've got

 

897

01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,000

lots of coffee

and all the changes that you suggested.

 

898

01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:27,240

So and I don't know much.

 

899

01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:29,000

I just don't know what to bring up.

 

900

01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:30,920

It's a waste of time.

 

901

01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,200

Well, it's not hard to discuss

kind of things, know, We can discuss that.

 

902

01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:35,080

We can.

 

903

01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:46,800

You know, I think that's a good point.

 

904

01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,520

But the literary central thing,

and that's the public concern

 

905

01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,520

as well as the major obligation,

 

906

01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:06,000

you know, those still to come in

 

907

01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:09,040

the form of the relevant.

 

908

01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,160

But of course.

 

909

01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,000

Okay, so we go through one of those,

 

910

01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:20,000

not the first

 

911

01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:25,440

point about the meaning of the.

 

912

01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,160

yeah.

 

913

01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:56,360

Is is so

 

914

01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:02,280

no, we we want to have the medium

 

915

01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:43,360

volumes on.

 

916

01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:53,280

I mean some of these points

have to go into the framework

 

917

01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,280

because they form the backdrop

to the European point.

 

918

01:07:56,360 --> 01:08:00,760

Me and all of that content etc..

 

919

01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,000

A of numbers were

 

920

01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:09,880

famous persons and we will get some,

 

921

01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,400

you know, anything about political speech.

 

922

01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:21,760

Well I've got some circulation

in communist Poland.

 

923

01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,160

Stroke, satirical, political stripe.

 

924

01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:25,240

Satirical. Yeah.

 

925

01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:28,800

What's going on?

 

926

01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:29,560

Political.

 

927

01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:32,560

Yeah, it's trying satirical concepts

 

928

01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:38,720

in a multibillion dollar

 

929

01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,040

multi donor,

 

930

01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:44,400

should we say,

 

931

01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:48,200

particularly in regard to the US

free speech or should we go through?

 

932

01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:51,720

Yeah, I've never really helped

someone get through to go through what

 

933

01:08:52,440 --> 01:08:55,520

I've done more to come on to point.

 

934

01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:58,200

I know because if you don't do that.

 

935

01:08:58,200 --> 01:08:59,240

No that's not a crap point.

 

936

01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:02,240

It's a very good point in terms

of propaganda, but it's not legal.

 

937

01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:04,800

But I think we we, we get it in.

 

938

01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:06,880

We've got a statement.

We've got an attorney standing on that.

 

939

01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,000

So we just want to get that in

as evidence.

 

940

01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:12,960

It doesn't really matter how we do it

and what we hope we hang it.

 

941

01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:16,760

Possibly our reputation

 

942

01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:18,680

that their reputation

 

943

01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:22,680

as a corporation will be dependent

upon largely the American

 

944

01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,840

communications, which would be this

and then go through this through accounts.

 

945

01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:28,040

It doesn't obviously

 

946

01:09:52,920 --> 01:10:19,080

this means it's

 

947

01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:03,920

not we're

 

948

01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:07,320

going to actually go

through a legal framework with us.

 

949

01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:10,080

Okay.

 

950

01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:12,800

Well, that's right, isn't it?

 

951

01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:16,080

Can we say something about

because I mean, Derbyshire doesn't say

 

952

01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:19,440

that this plus multinationals say

that it should be extended

 

953

01:11:19,440 --> 01:11:22,440

to multinationals.

 

954

01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:24,000

I mean, effectively,

 

955

01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:27,160

we all saying that,

but they might depend on.

 

956

01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:27,400

Yeah.

 

957

01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:31,560

In other words, the principles extracts

from the case of Derbyshire are equally

 

958

01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:36,840

or should be applied principles

be pliable, not to put it straight in.

 

959

01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:37,920

Yeah.

 

960

01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:41,640

The thing is we're not going to have time

to go through all the documents

 

961

01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:44,360

so everyone's word

 

962

01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:47,480

and so we can put in the important stuff.

 

963

01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:54,600

Don't worry about spell checks.

 

964

01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:57,600

I know

 

965

01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:09,120

about the principles

 

966

01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,120

applied in Derbyshire to

 

967

01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:15,720

to government

or bodies should be extended to

 

968

01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:21,440

or should be applied to multinationals.

 

969

01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,800

Yeah.

 

970

01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:32,040

Local authorities.

 

971

01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:32,720

I wasn't.

 

972

01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:35,720

Yeah.

 

973

01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,840

Apply where they

 

974

01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:41,920

applied

 

975

01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:44,360

to say any multinational

 

976

01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:47,640

or to a multinationals pretty big

 

977

01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,920

and a multinational of the size

 

978

01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:55,040

and character

nature and scope of the plaintiffs.

 

979

01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:57,600

Yeah. Yeah.

 

980

01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:00,600

So any moment now

any any multinationals got be praising

 

981

01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:03,440

them.

 

982

01:13:03,440 --> 01:13:05,360

See appendix one.

 

983

01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:08,360

Well it should be something

to the effect of

 

984

01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:10,280

cannot it.

 

985

01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:16,280

But to have a pay

because of their size etc.

 

986

01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:19,280

have a massive influence

over people's lives

 

987

01:13:20,480 --> 01:13:22,200

equal to local authority.

 

988

01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:26,160

That is that is all in that appendix

one anyway as a whole great long

 

989

01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:27,720

huge treaties.

 

990

01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,080

So you think that's covers. Yeah.

 

991

01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:30,880

Huge job.

 

992

01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:35,760

In fact we find it

because corporate identity in the court.

 

993

01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:36,280

Right. And

 

994

01:13:37,480 --> 01:13:38,800

sure enough

 

995

01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,520

so in the end you have in place right.

 

996

01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:44,920

All right look after part two.

 

997

01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:48,640

So basically they do not know whether it's

fair to say they've got to cover it.

 

998

01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,320

They've got to show loss.

 

999

01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:50,760

Yeah.

 

1000

01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:53,760

Also,

 

1001

01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:56,400

I thought that

 

1002

01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,400

that applied to companies as well.

 

1003

01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:05,160

What they don't have to show

does we're saying it should be different.

 

1004

01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:06,200

Right. Okay. Yeah.

 

1005

01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,200

This is an argument

for the change of the law

 

1006

01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:12,440

and I'm saying the reason for

is with the basis so decision.

 

1007

01:14:12,440 --> 01:14:15,360

And so when it was introduced

it was only for individuals,

 

1008

01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:17,520

but it's been extended

in the first place.

 

1009

01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:20,640

No company

ever thought of suing to a century.

 

1010

01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:24,880

So when it first

 

1011

01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:27,200

when it was first introduced,

it was because you couldn't

 

1012

01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:28,920

quantify the loss to a particular person.

 

1013

01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,400

Right. You they're looking

other people don't think so.

 

1014

01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:34,200

Yeah.

 

1015

01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:36,880

You have to go now.

 

1016

01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:37,240

Yeah.

 

1017

01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:41,200

They're in a different position

than have a general reputation

 

1018

01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:42,720

for things or trading reputation.

 

1019

01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:45,600

Now he accepts that doesn't happen

 

1020

01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:47,120

around ten.

 

1021

01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:50,120

I think so, yeah.

 

1022

01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:53,360

Except and the argument

is that to allow them to claim

 

1023

01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:56,360

general damages is going to take them

beyond

 

1024

01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:57,480

that reputation.

 

1025

01:14:57,480 --> 01:15:00,200

Yeah.

 

1026

01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:03,200

And problems not

 

1027

01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:05,880

for anything else.

 

1028

01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:08,280

Anything allows

 

1029

01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,280

companies

committing to try and get so far five.

 

1030

01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:13,000

That's the focus for me.

 

1031

01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:13,760

I haven't got anything.

 

1032

01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:17,640

So per five the thing to watch is the

the General Petraeus case

 

1033

01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:19,920

is not a complaint, isn't it?

 

1034

01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:22,920

Because it does say that companies will

be able to see without proving damage.

 

1035

01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:25,440

That's another point.

That's another point.

 

1036

01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:25,840

Yeah.

 

1037

01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:27,760

I mean, with that we set out the quote

I think is enough,

 

1038

01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:31,160

don't you, without putting the case

before you guys, right?

 

1039

01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:31,720

Yeah.

 

1040

01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:36,040

Per six,

 

1041

01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:37,720

the Red Cross

 

1042

01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:40,720

refers to your point on virtues. Yes.

 

1043

01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:43,920

So basically I'm saying you guys matches

that you can read into the agreement

 

1044

01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,840

that they didn't think it was causing them

any loss.

 

1045

01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:48,720

You know, just about that loss.

 

1046

01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:49,680

Yeah.

 

1047

01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,320

To do the job for

 

1048

01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:55,360

the court was in places

I'm sitting because of the digital world

 

1049

01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:58,920

for its publication to continue

what we've manifested precisely because it

 

1050

01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:03,680

considers contracts which are or not

or not such as to damage the plaintiffs.

 

1051

01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:06,840

The point is either it's damaged

their reputation, in which case,

 

1052

01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:09,840

how can they show

that our distribution is damaged?

 

1053

01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:11,600

Yeah, but that's not the point

that you started with.

 

1054

01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:12,960

What is dealing with here.

 

1055

01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:15,200

Is this common

 

1056

01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:18,200

or other is damage and they've allowed

the right place to be damaged?

 

1057

01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:21,960

Yeah, no, I was just about to start

a sentence at the end to

 

1058

01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:24,880

the it both ways.

 

1059

01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:27,880

Yeah.

 

1060

01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:31,080

Which things are going to be enforced

as an issue

 

1061

01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:34,080

is that we just want to a general site

 

1062

01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:38,920

just to reinforce effectively

 

1063

01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,520

so even it is damaging their reputation

in which case

 

1064

01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:45,640

but without that's happened

 

1065

01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:50,280

in line with what you've done

 

1066

01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:55,920

presumably it was only the second

plaintiff in fact issued an order.

 

1067

01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:58,200

Yes, I think that's right.

 

1068

01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,760

I think it was plaintiff

 

1069

01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:01,840

that was a settlement, though.

 

1070

01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:03,920

So that does mean that

 

1071

01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:06,920

I think we're going

 

1072

01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:16,880

even eventually

 

1073

01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:19,880

that's causing that, in which case

 

1074

01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:24,120

the complaint of

 

1075

01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:32,960

quite a lawsuit

 

1076

01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:40,520

we don't cause them loss either.

 

1077

01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:53,160

All has

 

1078

01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:56,160

caused

 

1079

01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:58,560

repair effective

 

1080

01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:01,080

agreement

 

1081

01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:04,080

and then

 

1082

01:18:04,440 --> 01:18:07,440

all the plaintiffs have

 

1083

01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:11,080

by the plaintiffs have accepted that.

 

1084

01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:15,560

And now that the loss

is indistinguishable.

 

1085

01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:16,800

yeah.

 

1086

01:18:21,960 --> 01:18:23,120

Of course them no loss.

 

1087

01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:24,680

In which case

the fact she complained of Canada.

 

1088

01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:25,920

Of course not either.

 

1089

01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:28,920

Or that it has caused an loss

but with agreement.

 

1090

01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,920

And now that loss is indistinguishable

from any further loss.

 

1091

01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:32,200

Is it

 

1092

01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:35,880

is it worth saying that the plaintiff's

allegation in all cases

 

1093

01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:39,320

that the most serious part

of the most seriously damaging part

 

1094

01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:41,640

of the factories,

the nutrition section of the case,

 

1095

01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:46,960

and they didn't make any changes to that

or request any changes

 

1096

01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:51,840

requested and changes

to inspections of plaintiffs. Now,

 

1097

01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:55,840

we say disingenuously, no.

 

1098

01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:56,640

And then they said test.

 

1099

01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,400

We agree with their case.

They're saying the British Mr..

 

1100

01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:00,680

Was all right.

 

1101

01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:03,200

Most notably, the plaintiffs now say

 

1102

01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:05,760

the nutrition

 

1103

01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:09,040

section

of the case of the name of the factory

 

1104

01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:14,280

but damage

 

1105

01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:19,280

yet they haven't made any

 

1106

01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:23,760

or any of that, you know, any crop yet.

 

1107

01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:27,480

They make no complaint whatsoever

of this part in the veggie section

 

1108

01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:31,680

that no

 

1109

01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:33,440

whatsoever.

 

1110

01:19:33,440 --> 01:19:36,160

Yeah, well, none whatsoever.

 

1111

01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:39,160

And to do that, that is in class and

 

1112

01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:44,680

but just a minute

 

1113

01:19:50,480 --> 01:19:52,600

satirical

 

1114

01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:54,560

headlines

 

1115

01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:57,360

about a satirical headline.

 

1116

01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:00,480

So yeah, the satirical banner had once

 

1117

01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:05,040

again calcium and the concern

 

1118

01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:07,560

and concern.

 

1119

01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:10,560

Yeah so yeah

 

1120

01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:12,960

okay seven

 

1121

01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:17,480

well it's stressful I kind of glad I for

 

1122

01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:26,040

yeah yeah

 

1123

01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:30,880

I that's right writing it

my first question is that

 

1124

01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:33,960

others are saying yes no

 

1125

01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:35,920

I mean the reason I'm that you know

 

1126

01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:38,920

but so guys glass in case

which I quite like from someone

 

1127

01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:42,640

you know I read that they have

Yeah yeah but

 

1128

01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:47,760

it's always patient not paranoid or I

Yeah I haven't got anything to say

 

1129

01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:54,320

On to 1112 1331 at the middle

 

1130

01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:00,000

13 be multi

 

1131

01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:03,440

mostly don't you know

billion dollar is small.

 

1132

01:21:03,480 --> 01:21:06,600

$1 anyway multi dollar billion.

 

1133

01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:07,920

Okay.

 

1134

01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:11,840

And also when I say they obviously

put out yet not thousand yet

 

1135

01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:14,920

and we've said be

 

1136

01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,160

thousands millions but millions

 

1137

01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:24,160

because I do know I know

 

1138

01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:28,120

they will lose tens of millions of

 

1139

01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:32,280

it's got billions and billions

 

1140

01:21:33,240 --> 01:21:39,960

of the stakes here forcing 14.

 

1141

01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:43,400

Yeah the fact is a political strike

 

1142

01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:46,400

satirical

 

1143

01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:49,280

and utterly satirical

 

1144

01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:52,320

or dependent

on political satirical context.

 

1145

01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:55,040

Well going to have to

change the second part.

 

1146

01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:58,800

That's how special to be able

to specialties either because it is

 

1147

01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:02,920

I don't think

you should put in the political

 

1148

01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:07,000

that was the whole other paragraph

is going to take part in it

 

1149

01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:08,760

but that's two separate things

 

1150

01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:14,160

or sanitize those

 

1151

01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:18,360

and relish those two lines

 

1152

01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:22,360

to political statement.

 

1153

01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:27,600

So what we all say, it's

 

1154

01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:33,960

the it goes

 

1155

01:22:33,960 --> 01:22:36,320

in the heart

 

1156

01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:39,320

of a discussion of

 

1157

01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:43,560

freedom of speech in a democracy.

 

1158

01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:44,560

It's not about that.

 

1159

01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:47,360

But what does it mean

if you have a political speech?

 

1160

01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:49,920

What can you have?

 

1161

01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:50,320

Okay.

 

1162

01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:53,320

58 post democracy, what we put the

 

1163

01:22:54,280 --> 01:22:56,480

before what

 

1164

01:22:56,480 --> 01:22:59,480

others because democracy

that we are at least slightly it

 

1165

01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:04,800

now you've got less but this is it's

satirical speech less like like

 

1166

01:23:05,320 --> 01:23:08,520

yeah that's why it's two separate things

I suppose Not a good idea

 

1167

01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:11,520

to some extent

 

1168

01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:14,520

either because in relation

 

1169

01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:22,680

to saw on the thing

 

1170

01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:26,040

that you're going to get really,

it's just idiosyncratic things.

 

1171

01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:30,520

You can't just I had just because most of

political speech goes to the heart.

 

1172

01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:31,840

Yeah, that's very good.

 

1173

01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:32,480

All right.

 

1174

01:23:32,480 --> 01:23:34,840

Can we put in context just go back

 

1175

01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:37,960

complain about

 

1176

01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:41,200

is in content or context is that.

 

1177

01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:45,280

Yeah, that's right.

 

1178

01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:50,520

Okay. Yes.

 

1179

01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:54,520

Okay so 16 be No, hang on.

 

1180

01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:57,600

Yeah. I don't understand. 1515.

 

1181

01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:00,000

Do you want to just say see the opinion.

 

1182

01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:01,800

Yeah. Yeah. But that's a minus. Right.

 

1183

01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:04,800

But the point now is

the point is that the point.

 

1184

01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:08,120

The point is what we're saying is

have they said in the US things we

 

1185

01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:10,000

what is getting the US stuff

into something about how we do it.

 

1186

01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:10,680

Yeah. Yeah.

 

1187

01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:11,640

What is the ballocks.

 

1188

01:24:11,640 --> 01:24:12,280

We them.

 

1189

01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:15,280

But I think they come up

 

1190

01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:19,760

with a reputation.

 

1191

01:24:20,120 --> 01:24:21,920

Well I think we can get it

in on a reputation. Yeah.

 

1192

01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:23,080

Because the point.

 

1193

01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:26,440

The point is that their reputation

as a corporation is dependent,

 

1194

01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:31,000

but mainly on the US reputation

in the States.

 

1195

01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:32,080

They will not be able to serve.

 

1196

01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:36,920

Therefore, it's considered that their

reputation in the state is considered

 

1197

01:24:39,440 --> 01:24:42,720

to be robust or

 

1198

01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:46,960

blah, blah blah.

 

1199

01:24:47,080 --> 01:24:50,440

So I'm saying in the US

legal context is concerned.

 

1200

01:24:50,440 --> 01:24:52,200

They have no right to say this as well.

 

1201

01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:55,680

I've never understood this,

but the preeminent symbol of opposition

 

1202

01:24:56,080 --> 01:24:57,480

shall adopted by this court.

 

1203

01:24:57,480 --> 01:25:00,480

You don't like that.

 

1204

01:25:00,760 --> 01:25:02,040

Yeah, that's fine, That's all fine.

 

1205

01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:05,840

And then, you know,

let's just one sentence in Any of us

 

1206

01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:09,640

that insists the defendant is

 

1207

01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:13,360

no question

 

1208

01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:16,280

whether the first

 

1209

01:25:16,280 --> 01:25:19,200

certainly has any reputation

 

1210

01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:22,200

as notable ally in the UK.

 

1211

01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:25,920

I think that somewhere else

 

1212

01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:28,920

we did have but it got lost

nice and got lots of glamor.

 

1213

01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:33,160

well I have to incorporate these see.

 

1214

01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:35,200

Yeah, that's it.

 

1215

01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:38,200

See appendix the appendix

 

1216

01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:43,320

from the appendix go to pieces.

 

1217

01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:45,440

Okay.

 

1218

01:25:45,440 --> 01:25:48,640

I understand from its,

its reputation around the world

 

1219

01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:53,160

by some fantastic statements

that plaintiffs rather than defendants

 

1220

01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:56,320

got the be fair plaintiffs

 

1221

01:25:57,440 --> 01:25:59,040

who you

 

1222

01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:01,080

first point I lost have.

 

1223

01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:07,200

Yeah I've got

 

1224

01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:10,680

I've got a paragraph on self-defense.

 

1225

01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:12,720

What's wrong here

 

1226

01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:15,720

that is inconsistent

with that discrepancy.

 

1227

01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:17,400

Can you put

 

1228

01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:20,680

clarify provided you're happy

with this case, but it needs to be

 

1229

01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:24,360

that it's been extra sentence

about serving a balance

 

1230

01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:29,440

that society it's not just privilege,

it's also self-defense,

 

1231

01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:34,680

especially in the not, for example,

the elements in the case and what you guys

 

1232

01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:38,360

of the misuse of the system.

 

1233

01:26:38,440 --> 01:26:41,560

I mean, you know,

if you have a general defense to defend

 

1234

01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:45,640

something more than just yourself,

you know, not obligation to defend

 

1235

01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:50,240

others as well.

 

1236

01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:51,600

If someone decides

 

1237

01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:55,360

and you attacked the attacker,

you plead self-defense.

 

1238

01:26:56,440 --> 01:26:58,560

Yeah,

 

1239

01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,000

it's not so it's defense.

 

1240

01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:02,840

It should be

privileged is privileged. In fact, law

 

1241

01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:06,080

provides a greater crime.

 

1242

01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:08,080

Yeah. So. All right.

 

1243

01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:14,000

So I can do that at a time, I suppose,

for another parish, this pope just put.

 

1244

01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:16,320

Yeah, I'm just

 

1245

01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:17,880

brought up on those.

 

1246

01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:20,880

I mean, so basically it's in any event,

 

1247

01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:26,640

any event over there to a privilege.

 

1248

01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:28,120

I mean it would be complete privilege.

 

1249

01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:29,280

So there is no there is.

 

1250

01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:33,400

There is that it's recognized in law

that you have a line.

 

1251

01:27:33,440 --> 01:27:35,920

It's not doesn't matter,

but not in general law.

 

1252

01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:38,760

And you're entitled to take action

to prevent crime.

 

1253

01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:39,320

That's for sure.

 

1254

01:27:39,320 --> 01:27:42,520

That the privilege as it is pertain

 

1255

01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:46,720

to the can

 

1256

01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:00,120

that what the

 

1257

01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:02,720

I wouldn't worry about it.

 

1258

01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:05,400

I can do something not to discuss it.

 

1259

01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:08,400

But you

 

1260

01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:10,200

only just put them down. And

 

1261

01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:14,160

the point is the self will safeguard

 

1262

01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:17,760

the rights of others. Yes.

 

1263

01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:20,280

Okay. Particularly important in this case.

 

1264

01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:22,440

You got all the employees.

 

1265

01:28:22,440 --> 01:28:24,960

We've got a McDonald's,

you know, denial, have rights

 

1266

01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:27,960

to employees, animals and children.

 

1267

01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:31,040

The point is,

those three categories of people,

 

1268

01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:34,040

living beings

 

1269

01:28:34,200 --> 01:28:36,880

were exposed to employees,

 

1270

01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,880

children and animals.

 

1271

01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:45,360

yeah.

 

1272

01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:47,760

Well, that needs to be just changed

and that's just fine.

 

1273

01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:50,760

I can do that. Animals can't fight that.

 

1274

01:28:51,320 --> 01:28:52,720

You know, children can't fight back.

 

1275

01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:54,960

Yeah, workers could fight back.

 

1276

01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:57,800

They just got no rights in the contract

assignment contracts.

 

1277

01:28:57,800 --> 01:28:59,400

Gives them no rights. Yeah.

 

1278

01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:02,400

Okay. See?

 

1279

01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:07,000

Not even allowed to discuss the conditions

of work out with outside bodies.

 

1280

01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:09,720

So people have got to intervene

and evidence.

 

1281

01:29:09,720 --> 01:29:11,880

Yeah. Is it, you know, he said.

 

1282

01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:15,000

It's a summary sackable offense

to discuss with him.

 

1283

01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:17,800

Let's just put that then.

 

1284

01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:21,560

That's the point about the evidence

clearly doesn't make sense.

 

1285

01:29:21,960 --> 01:29:23,120

It is a

 

1286

01:29:24,480 --> 01:29:27,440

as I would

 

1287

01:29:27,440 --> 01:29:29,200

to to was

 

1288

01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:34,400

to the right to this note to discuss

is to inform an outside party

 

1289

01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:37,400

regarding conditions

 

1290

01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:43,720

I'm talking about

 

1291

01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:51,840

from time to time.

 

1292

01:29:57,040 --> 01:29:58,320

Okay we'll look at that.

 

1293

01:29:58,320 --> 01:30:00,480

Yeah I'll,

I'll just put dot, dot, dot, dot.

 

1294

01:30:00,480 --> 01:30:02,760

So remember

 

1295

01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:04,680

that's okay.

 

1296

01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:06,280

I'll do the same

with animals and children.

 

1297

01:30:06,280 --> 01:30:08,200

This recognize that they're virgin

territory.

 

1298

01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:11,200

Children animals

obviously can't defend selves

 

1299

01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:15,280

on the facts of the case

but approve of the reversed. Yes.

 

1300

01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:17,640

So we have a

no no. But we ought to be here.

 

1301

01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:20,520

Okay. I need to make sure that's fine.

 

1302

01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:23,520

I mean, all rhetorical, that's all.

 

1303

01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:25,080

That's all.

 

1304

01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:29,360

All I got Anything else

from my punishment?

 

1305

01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:31,160

I mean. That's right, isn't it?

 

1306

01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:32,760

Yeah, but we can pick that up.

 

1307

01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:34,600

And the public only knows

McDonald's doesn't.

 

1308

01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:38,080

It Doesn't know Donald's

not of restaurants and what the different.

 

1309

01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:39,120

Fine.

 

1310

01:30:39,120 --> 01:30:40,360

We don't know what the difference is.

 

1311

01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:42,600

And the judge has been wrong.

 

1312

01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:46,680

One is the world holding company

and those are the franchise companies.

 

1313

01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:52,440

no I of the franchise wholly owned

subsidiary.

 

1314

01:30:52,440 --> 01:30:55,360

UK subsidiary. Yeah.

 

1315

01:30:55,360 --> 01:30:58,080

Have you checked with him to the.

 

1316

01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:00,240

I haven't Yeah I was going to now.

 

1317

01:31:00,240 --> 01:31:03,120

Yeah. Don't do that. Socialite

Chuck is the main bloke.

 

1318

01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:07,080

I don't actually think it's a good idea

to have everything in the same document

 

1319

01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:08,080

because I think it's just going

 

1320

01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:11,080

to make a nightmare

every time you've got to rewrite the,

 

1321

01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:13,320

you've got to reprint the whole thing.

 

1322

01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:17,200

I'll just think it's much better

to have that sort of thing for each thing.

 

1323

01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:18,760

Yeah.

 

1324

01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:19,880

Yeah. Okay.

 

1325

01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:22,880

Well, I'll do some.

 

1326

01:31:23,280 --> 01:31:25,400

If you could say a couple more.

 

1327

01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:28,920

I'm going to probably agree with Helen,

but I mean, it's just for a little while.

 

1328

01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:30,560

I think we should all be one doctor.

 

1329

01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:33,000

We give to the judge part

from publication, which means doing

 

1330

01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:35,760

it because it's going to be a nightmare.

 

1331

01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:36,760

Yeah, we'll try and organize.

 

1332

01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:40,120

But the reality is,

if they if we find it as one document,

 

1333

01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:42,240

we're not going to have it all ready

for tomorrow.

 

1334

01:31:42,240 --> 01:31:45,760

No, but if, if we've got to know really,

if we've,

 

1335

01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:48,840

if we've got it in separate documents,

then we can hand up it

 

1336

01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:51,840

when it's ready.

 

1337

01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:52,880

Just not as well.

 

1338

01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:56,480

I've got 25 different,

you know, appendices or whatever.

 

1339

01:31:56,480 --> 01:31:59,480

So just go through the,

 

1340

01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:04,160

the main one and put and also see

number one and mock mock up. Yes.

 

1341

01:32:04,160 --> 01:32:07,160

But also I've got to move some stuff

from here

 

1342

01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:10,160

to that one and vice versa because

 

1343

01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:14,120

so it ought to be in the same document

 

1344

01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:16,080

or that could be

why don't you just put it as an appendix

 

1345

01:32:16,080 --> 01:32:18,960

at the back of that document

rather than within it

 

1346

01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:21,840

Put the legal framework

at the end of the last one.

 

1347

01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:23,400

Yeah. So it's not actually.

 

1348

01:32:24,480 --> 01:32:24,600

Yeah.

 

1349

01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:27,720

That, but I mean

I think it comes up front to be honest.

 

1350

01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,320

I know, but the point I was making is that

it's upfront, it's in the document.

 

1351

01:32:33,080 --> 01:32:34,440

I don't know what you get in that.

 

1352

01:32:34,440 --> 01:32:36,800

I mean if it's in a separate file,

you can put it where

 

1353

01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:40,280

I don't want anything separate file,

but I can't work on it in separate files.

 

1354

01:32:40,280 --> 01:32:41,720

I'm going to have to shift stuff around.

 

1355

01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:43,920

So I want it

all in the same actually very document.

 

1356

01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:45,920

If I can't do it, that's just a fact.

 

1357

01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:48,920

Well, if you took about 2 minutes,

you know, I can't just.

 

1358

01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:52,600

Well, look, what I do with it, I think

should put it at the end of a document.

 

1359

01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:56,280

So it's it's in it, but

it's at the end of the list altogether.

 

1360

01:32:56,280 --> 01:32:56,760

So that was

 

1361

01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:00,800

right.

 

1362

01:33:01,800 --> 01:33:04,800

You saved it.

 

1363

01:33:05,480 --> 01:33:08,920

Little 501.

 

1364

01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:11,840

Have you got the date?

 

1365

01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:13,160

Ask can you. Can you.

 

1366

01:33:13,160 --> 01:33:16,160

So do it. So

 

1367

01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:19,120

yeah.

 

1368

01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:19,560

Frame up.

 

1369

01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:22,560

Just just do it again

 

1370

01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:28,280

once.

 

1371

01:33:30,760 --> 01:33:31,680

What have you got?

 

1372

01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:33,760

What do you want to put on there?

 

1373

01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:36,000

Are you going to say this one away again.

 

1374

01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:37,240

I haven't got another of with me.

 

1375

01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:38,400

Well I've got this this quote.

 

1376

01:33:38,400 --> 01:33:42,400

I'm from burning buildings and playground.

 

1377

01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:46,480

This is another one

that I want in the tent.

 

1378

01:33:46,480 --> 01:33:48,240

So if

 

1379

01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:51,240

and then the previous one.

 

1380

01:33:51,800 --> 01:33:54,360

Okay. This damage. Yeah.

 

1381

01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:55,080

This is not good.

 

1382

01:33:55,080 --> 01:33:56,760

It is rubbish.

 

1383

01:33:56,760 --> 01:33:59,080

Is it. Yeah.

 

1384

01:33:59,080 --> 01:34:02,040

Well it's tough and you know, there is

I've signed a separate document.

 

1385

01:34:02,040 --> 01:34:03,360

I'll put it all in one document,

 

1386

01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:06,360

I'll do three different versions

and then you can find out later.

 

1387

01:34:08,280 --> 01:34:08,920

What you've got

 

1388

01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:12,240

to do is, is when you're in one document,

press f five,

 

1389

01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:16,560

get the directory of documents,

and then select the ones that you meant.

 

1390

01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:18,640

And it gets through that document.

 

1391

01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:20,520

And it is so easy, right?

 

1392

01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:23,520

I don't

I just want to add in one document.

 

1393

01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:27,760

You want it in two different documents,

 

1394

01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:44,760

right?

 

1395

01:34:44,760 --> 01:35:46,560

So and also Don Mills on my right,

 

1396

01:35:46,560 --> 01:35:50,480

I'd just like them to say a few words

in particular in relation to suppression

 

1397

01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:53,840

and freedom of speech, which is really

another whole aspect of this case.

 

1398

01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:56,840

CARE has assisted them

throughout voluntarily.

 

1399

01:35:57,120 --> 01:35:58,320

Sending you a barrister?

 

1400

01:35:58,320 --> 01:35:59,560

Yes, I'm a barrister.

 

1401

01:35:59,560 --> 01:36:02,560

Help Dave and Helen

throughout this campaign.

 

1402

01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:05,680

Can I just say this in response

to the thrust of the questions

 

1403

01:36:05,680 --> 01:36:07,320

that have been put so far,

 

1404

01:36:07,320 --> 01:36:11,280

all litigation has to be judged

by the objectives of the parties.

 

1405

01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:15,440

The objectives of McDonald's

in bringing this case was to silence

 

1406

01:36:15,440 --> 01:36:19,240

Dave and Helen, and that's why they choose

to chose to sue here, etc.

 

1407

01:36:19,560 --> 01:36:23,880

They set up seven issues in this trial

for determination.

 

1408

01:36:24,160 --> 01:36:26,160

They chose those issues.

 

1409

01:36:26,160 --> 01:36:29,160

And given the inequality

between Dave and Helen,

 

1410

01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:33,720

and then they had to win on every issue

if they were to achieve their objectives,

 

1411

01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:37,840

Dave and Helen did not win

one or two minor battles.

 

1412

01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:43,280

They won two of those issues outright

and they won half of two other issues.

 

1413

01:36:43,480 --> 01:36:47,000

Now that isn't a bad record

and that is not a victory for McDonald's.

 

1414

01:36:47,280 --> 01:36:51,680

For McDonald's, the only victory

to was to win all seven issues.

 

1415

01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:55,000

They had the libel team,

the expert team of lawyers

 

1416

01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:58,880

working for the last five years

behind the scenes and in court for them.

 

1417

01:36:59,080 --> 01:37:02,440

Dave and Helen

had the occasional bit of advice from me

 

1418

01:37:02,560 --> 01:37:04,960

when they could come

and I could give it to them.

 

1419

01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:08,280

That's where the victory lies

in the fact that they've won almost half

 

1420

01:37:08,280 --> 01:37:11,280

of this case

with those odds stacked against them.

 

1421

01:37:11,280 --> 01:37:14,520

And let me say this,

if I may, Questions of bankruptcy

 

1422

01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:19,040

and paying the damages will only apply

if Dave and Helen don't win in.

 

1423

01:37:19,800 --> 01:37:23,480

And I have no doubt in my mind

that the European Court of Human Rights

 

1424

01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:26,680

on its jurisprudence

so far will decide that

 

1425

01:37:26,960 --> 01:37:30,200

the longest ever case in this country

 

1426

01:37:30,360 --> 01:37:34,680

with no legal aid against

McDonald's is an unequal trial.

 

1427

01:37:34,680 --> 01:37:36,920

That is a breach of Article

six of the convention.

 

1428

01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:38,760

In five years time, we will be having

 

1429

01:37:38,760 --> 01:37:42,400

another press conference with you

in which we will have one on all issues

 

1430

01:37:42,520 --> 01:37:45,560

and there will be no question

of damages or of bankruptcy.

 

1431

01:37:55,080 --> 01:37:56,840

And now, Dan, from the campaign

 

1432

01:37:56,840 --> 01:37:59,840

getting involved since the beginning

 

1433

01:38:52,720 --> 01:38:53,760

of the main verdict,

 

1434

01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:57,480

Dave and Helen appealed to the Court

of Appeal on a number of important

 

1435

01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:01,240

points, including some of the points

that they subsequently raised

 

1436

01:39:01,480 --> 01:39:02,960

before the European Court.

 

1437

01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:07,520

And significantly, they won on

a number of issues in the court appeal.

 

1438

01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:11,680

Working conditions was one of them

and heart disease was another.

 

1439

01:39:11,680 --> 01:39:15,080

They were very important issues and

the Court of Appeal found in their favor.

 

1440

01:39:15,240 --> 01:39:20,400

That means that the scope

for criticizing multinationals on issues

 

1441

01:39:20,760 --> 01:39:25,200

such as bad working conditions

and the link between diet

 

1442

01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:28,200

and health abroad than, they would

otherwise be

 

1443

01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:31,800

would you know about the damages?

 

1444

01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:33,400

They reduced the damages to May

 

1445

01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:36,360

14? Yeah.

 

1446

01:39:36,360 --> 01:39:38,200

So I think

 

1447

01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:39,960

the Court of Appeal also

 

1448

01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:43,800

reduced the damages

payable to McDonald's,

 

1449

01:39:43,800 --> 01:39:46,880

although the sum was still high for people

without any

 

1450

01:39:46,920 --> 01:39:50,520

substantial income,

it was good that it was reduced

 

1451

01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:53,600

from the award

that was given by the High Court.

 

1452

01:39:53,600 --> 01:39:56,600

They haven't paid other.

 

1453

01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:01,120

The award of damages

 

1454

01:40:01,120 --> 01:40:05,040

is so high

in relative terms for two people

 

1455

01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:09,920

without any real income that there's

no prospect of them ever being paid.

 

1456

01:40:10,200 --> 01:40:13,200

And that's a major factor

for freedom of speech.

 

1457

01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:17,640

Well, that's kind of is

 

1458

01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:23,880

one of the curious aspects of this case,

is that the leaflets that MacDonald

 

1459

01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:27,200

complained about were

 

1460

01:40:27,280 --> 01:40:31,160

produced much more extensively during

and after the case than they ever

 

1461

01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:34,800

were before

and were read by many thousands of people

 

1462

01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:38,640

who would never have seen them had

McDonald's not brought the case.

 

1463

01:40:38,960 --> 01:40:42,600

So in many respects

it was counterproductive.

 

1464

01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:44,760

So far as McDonald's were concerned,

 

1465

01:40:44,760 --> 01:40:47,720

it would be open to McDonald's

to take action against anyone

 

1466

01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:51,000

they thought was handing out

defamatory leaflets about them.

 

1467

01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:54,520

But I think the public relations disaster

that this case was

 

1468

01:40:54,520 --> 01:40:58,120

will mean, that they're very unlikely,

if ever, to do that.

 

1469

01:40:58,960 --> 01:41:01,960

The only basis for us, again,

 

1470

01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:05,160

the only basis upon which David

 

1471

01:41:05,160 --> 01:41:08,160

Helland could be sent to prison

is if McDonald's

 

1472

01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:12,360

force the payment of their damages

and Dave

 

1473

01:41:12,360 --> 01:41:15,680

and Helen were able to pay

but refuse to pay.

 

1474

01:41:16,080 --> 01:41:19,000

It's extremely unlikely

that McDonald's are going to take

 

1475

01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:22,760

such a step because it will bring

them further bad publicity

 

1476

01:41:25,360 --> 01:41:26,760

like it does.

 

1477

01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:28,160

This was some of the stuff

 

1478

01:41:28,160 --> 01:41:31,560

we raised in Strasbourg just to remind me

what the case was about.

 

1479

01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:35,800

But without slightly a little bit stuff

 

1480

01:41:37,080 --> 01:41:40,080

that wouldn't.

 

1481

01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:41,040

Yeah.

 

1482

01:41:41,040 --> 01:41:46,320

The real problem with libel law

as it stands is that

 

1483

01:41:46,320 --> 01:41:49,560

the burden is on the defendant

and therefore in this case was on Dave

 

1484

01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:52,800

and Helen

to prove the truth of everything

 

1485

01:41:52,840 --> 01:41:56,520

in the leaflet

that they're alleged to have handed out,

 

1486

01:41:57,120 --> 01:42:00,240

or at least the truth of everything

that they committed on,

 

1487

01:42:00,240 --> 01:42:05,800

that's a huge a disproportionate burden

made much more difficult

 

1488

01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:09,680

by the fact that they're not even allowed

to rely on secondary sources, i.e.

 

1489

01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:11,160

what other people have written

 

1490

01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:14,440

on the subject that which

they genuinely believed to be true.

 

1491

01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:18,240

And that's a real problem

with libel law in this country.

 

1492

01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:20,880

An example of the difficulty

 

1493

01:42:22,320 --> 01:42:23,800

was given in relation

 

1494

01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:27,440

to the evidence about where

McDonald's meat really comes from.

 

1495

01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:31,640

Obviously, that's well within McDonald's

McDonald's knowledge anyway.

 

1496

01:42:31,920 --> 01:42:36,680

But what Dave and Helen had to prove

by going back to the actual producers

 

1497

01:42:36,960 --> 01:42:40,120

is where the meat was coming from,

rather than relying what on what

 

1498

01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:43,120

other people

were claiming to be the source.

 

1499

01:42:43,320 --> 01:42:48,520

So it's a huge, huge task involved

trying to track down people in America.

 

1500

01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:52,080

Impossible for people

without any wealth and money

 

1501

01:42:54,120 --> 01:42:56,560

is that overlapping

to many different issues.

 

1502

01:42:56,560 --> 01:42:58,680

Yeah. Okay. Do you want to do that again?

 

1503

01:42:58,680 --> 01:42:59,160

Yeah.

 

1504

01:42:59,160 --> 01:43:02,160

what was the question again?

 

1505

01:43:02,200 --> 01:43:06,120

One of the real problems with labor

law is it's heavily

 

1506

01:43:06,120 --> 01:43:10,040

weighted against defendants

and against free speech.

 

1507

01:43:10,440 --> 01:43:13,760

So in this case, David and Helen

have to prove the truth

 

1508

01:43:14,160 --> 01:43:18,160

of everything that's in the leaflet

that McDonald's say they handed out,

 

1509

01:43:18,640 --> 01:43:22,400

or at least the truth of the matter

that they commented on.

 

1510

01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:25,600

And that's extremely difficult,

 

1511

01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:29,600

particularly

since they're not allowed to say

 

1512

01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:33,120

we read this somewhere else

and we genuinely believed it to be true.

 

1513

01:43:33,560 --> 01:43:38,160

And it is curious

that libel law is stricter

 

1514

01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:40,120

than personal injury law.

 

1515

01:43:40,120 --> 01:43:42,240

If I run someone over with my car,

 

1516

01:43:42,240 --> 01:43:44,920

I'm entitled to say

I exercise reasonable care.

 

1517

01:43:44,920 --> 01:43:48,960

If I libel someone, I'm not entitled

to say I exercised reasonable care.

 

1518

01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:50,720

I've got to prove the truth.

 

1519

01:43:50,720 --> 01:43:54,120

So that's a real problem

for Dave and Helen in this case.

 

1520

01:43:55,080 --> 01:43:55,480

David.

 

1521

01:43:55,480 --> 01:44:00,080

Helen have to prove the truth

of all the allegations in the leaflet

 

1522

01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:05,680

that McDonald's say they handed out

McDonald's can sit back knowing the truth

 

1523

01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:09,120

of all those allegations

and prove nothing.

 

1524

01:44:09,480 --> 01:44:13,880

And the burden is therefore totally on

the two individuals

 

1525

01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:17,040

who don't have the money or resources

to actually establish

 

1526

01:44:17,040 --> 01:44:20,040

what the court's asking them to establish.

 

1527

01:44:20,520 --> 01:44:23,520

Is that right?

 

1528

01:44:39,240 --> 01:44:42,840

The libel laws

in England Wales are notoriously

 

1529

01:44:42,920 --> 01:44:46,880

anti free speech because of the burdens

 

1530

01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:50,440

they put on defendants

to prove so much of the case.

 

1531

01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:54,920

And it's for that reason that many,

many people choose to sue

 

1532

01:44:54,920 --> 01:44:57,920

in London rather than suing in their own

jurisdiction.

 

1533

01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:03,280

So a leaflet or a program is broadcast

in several countries.

 

1534

01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:07,880

Most people will choose London

as the place for the litigation

 

1535

01:45:08,120 --> 01:45:13,480

because the libel laws are so in favor

of those that say they've been defamed

 

1536

01:45:13,480 --> 01:45:17,040

and so against those that are exercising

their rights of free speech,

 

1537

01:45:18,560 --> 01:45:21,560

the right

 

1538

01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:28,760

who did this thing.

 

1539

01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:32,480

So the High Court found

 

1540

01:45:33,200 --> 01:45:36,040

a number of issues in McDonnell's favor.

 

1541

01:45:36,040 --> 01:45:40,440

That doesn't mean that the true

 

1542

01:45:40,440 --> 01:45:43,440

I what MacDonald's were complaining about

is true.

 

1543

01:45:43,680 --> 01:45:45,480

It mainly means that Dave and Helen

 

1544

01:45:45,480 --> 01:45:49,360

were unable to establish

what they started again.

 

1545

01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:50,400

Yeah.

 

1546

01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:53,400

Reinforces.

 

1547

01:45:54,440 --> 01:45:54,720

Yeah.

 

1548

01:45:54,720 --> 01:45:56,960

Okay,

 

1549

01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:58,720

so just kick off.

 

1550

01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:03,560

The High Court found a number of issues

in McDonnell's favor.

 

1551

01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:07,280

That doesn't mean

that McDonald's had established

 

1552

01:46:07,720 --> 01:46:12,720

that those allegations were false

and defamatory.

 

1553

01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:16,360

It just means that Dave and Helen

were unable to discharge the burden

 

1554

01:46:16,360 --> 01:46:21,240

on them to prove

that what they were saying was true and.

 

1555

01:46:21,240 --> 01:46:24,720

Therefore, it's a pretty unsatisfactory

result for everybody.

 

1556

01:46:25,520 --> 01:46:30,480

As an exercise in establishing

the truth, the case proved nothing.

 

1557

01:46:31,040 --> 01:46:34,760

It didn't establish that what McDonald's

were complaining of was false

 

1558

01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:36,520

because they never had to prove that.

 

1559

01:46:36,520 --> 01:46:40,960

All it established

was that two unemployed

 

1560

01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:42,560

people without resources

 

1561

01:46:42,560 --> 01:46:47,200

were unable to prove the truth

of some of the allegations complained of.

 

1562

01:46:47,200 --> 01:46:50,440

And we're no wiser

now as to where the truth

 

1563

01:46:50,440 --> 01:46:53,440

really than we were

at the beginning of the process.

 

1564

01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:56,440

But of course, David Helen did win

 

1565

01:46:56,440 --> 01:46:59,760

a number of issues

and that is phenomenal.

 

1566

01:46:59,840 --> 01:47:06,480

Very much against the odds

and demonstrates just how

 

1567

01:47:06,600 --> 01:47:09,920

well they defended themselves.

 

1568

01:47:10,360 --> 01:47:11,440

That's probably not the right word.

 

1569

01:47:12,880 --> 01:47:14,560

Dave and Helen, of course,

 

1570

01:47:14,560 --> 01:47:20,200

did win a number of issues in the case

and that is hugely significant

 

1571

01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:23,840

because

it was very much against the odds.

 

1572

01:47:23,840 --> 01:47:29,360

And it does show that despite

the resources and wealth of MacDonald's,

 

1573

01:47:29,760 --> 01:47:32,440

some of what they were suggesting

 

1574

01:47:32,440 --> 01:47:35,440

was defamatory was in fact true,

 

1575

01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:37,680

right?

 

1576

01:47:37,680 --> 01:47:40,240

As far as I know, they haven't sued

anyone else in similar circumstances.

 

1577

01:47:40,240 --> 01:47:42,360

I think it's pretty unlikely they will do.

 

1578

01:47:42,360 --> 01:47:45,760

And they've acknowledged that it's

that it was a public relations disaster.

 

1579

01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:49,360

Yeah, they did a press release

when they got the new person

 

1580

01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:52,360

in post.

 

1581

01:47:53,000 --> 01:47:54,760

So far as I'm aware, McDonald's

 

1582

01:47:54,760 --> 01:48:00,200

haven't brought legal proceedings

against anyone for libel

 

1583

01:48:01,640 --> 01:48:05,800

the way that they did against

Dave and Helen since the case.

 

1584

01:48:05,800 --> 01:48:08,240

And I think it's pretty unlikely

that they will.

 

1585

01:48:08,240 --> 01:48:12,280

They have publicly acknowledged

that the case was a public

 

1586

01:48:12,280 --> 01:48:15,520

relations

disaster, which it undoubtedly was.

 

1587

01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:18,840

But it's very

 

1588

01:48:18,840 --> 01:48:21,840

important for that to be put in context.

 

1589

01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:24,600

Before Dave and Helen

stood up to MacDonalds,

 

1590

01:48:24,600 --> 01:48:27,480

almost everybody that they threatened with

libel proceedings

 

1591

01:48:27,480 --> 01:48:31,160

caved in and withdrew whatever

they were saying about McDonald's.

 

1592

01:48:31,480 --> 01:48:35,040

The courage of Dave and Helen in fighting

their case will have inspired

 

1593

01:48:35,040 --> 01:48:38,760

other people to stand up

for what they believe to be true.

 

1594

01:48:38,760 --> 01:48:40,360

And that's obviously a good thing

 

1595

01:48:40,360 --> 01:48:43,360

in a democracy

that depends on freedom of speech.

 

1596

01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:48,760

And the case

appears have altered McDonald's tactics.

 

1597

01:48:49,240 --> 01:48:52,240

Before the case against Dave and Helen,

 

1598

01:48:52,680 --> 01:48:56,480

almost everybody that they threatened

with libel proceedings caved in

 

1599

01:48:56,480 --> 01:49:00,040

and withdrew whatever McDonald's

were complaining about.

 

1600

01:49:00,480 --> 01:49:05,200

Since the case involving Dave and Helen,

I don't think McDonald's

 

1601

01:49:05,200 --> 01:49:09,840

has even threatened anybody with libel

proceedings in similar circumstances.

 

1602

01:49:10,280 --> 01:49:14,880

And they've publicly acknowledged that

the case was a public relations disaster.

 

1603

01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:18,200

And that's a good thing for free speech.

 

1604

01:49:18,200 --> 01:49:22,600

People will feel more confident

in criticizing McDonald's

 

1605

01:49:22,880 --> 01:49:26,200

in the knowledge that they won't

be visited with an expensive libel suit.

 

1606

01:49:28,440 --> 01:49:29,640

You can cut around with that.

 

1607

01:49:29,640 --> 01:49:32,000

That cuts.

 

1608

01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:33,600

One of the

 

1609

01:49:33,600 --> 01:49:37,200

major aspects of the case

is that some of the issues that Dave

 

1610

01:49:37,200 --> 01:49:42,120

and Helen were raising, such as junk

food and advertising to children,

 

1611

01:49:42,480 --> 01:49:45,880

were not widely debated

ten, 15, 20 years ago.

 

1612

01:49:46,200 --> 01:49:47,880

But now they are mainstream.

 

1613

01:49:47,880 --> 01:49:51,320

And the profile

and the importance of those issues

 

1614

01:49:51,320 --> 01:49:54,960

has been noted and they are now

 

1615

01:49:54,960 --> 01:49:57,960

considered to be proper

public interest issues.

 

1616

01:49:57,960 --> 01:50:01,720

And the European Union

has recently taken action

 

1617

01:50:01,800 --> 01:50:05,360

to prevent

advertising junk food to children.

 

1618

01:50:05,360 --> 01:50:09,000

And that shows you just how mainstream

the issues have now become.

 

1619

01:50:09,400 --> 01:50:10,200

Is mainstream.

 

1620

01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:14,480

The word one of the important

aspects of the case is that

 

1621

01:50:14,480 --> 01:50:17,480

many of the issues were not widely debated

 

1622

01:50:17,480 --> 01:50:20,360

ten, 15 years ago, but they are now.

 

1623

01:50:20,360 --> 01:50:23,160

An example is junk food.

 

1624

01:50:23,160 --> 01:50:27,360

That's a major public interest issue

these days.

 

1625

01:50:27,760 --> 01:50:31,680

The profiles being raised by such as Dave

and Helen.

 

1626

01:50:32,040 --> 01:50:35,920

And it's notable that the EU

is now beginning to take notice

 

1627

01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:40,520

and take action and is threatening

that it may even contemplate legislation

 

1628

01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:44,280

to deal with

advertising of junk food to children

 

1629

01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:47,520

if the industry doesn't regulate itself

in the near future.

 

1630

01:50:48,160 --> 01:50:52,760

David Helen And now taking their case

to the European Court of Human Rights,

 

1631

01:50:52,760 --> 01:50:55,760

which is the most important court

in the whole of Europe,

 

1632

01:50:56,200 --> 01:50:59,480

and will seek to argue that UK

 

1633

01:50:59,480 --> 01:51:03,360

law is in breach of the European

Convention of Human Rights.

 

1634

01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:04,960

So the stakes could not be higher.

 

1635

01:51:06,200 --> 01:51:08,480

Ironically,

 

1636

01:51:08,480 --> 01:51:12,120

this

stage, Dave and Helen, have been granted

 

1637

01:51:12,160 --> 01:51:16,120

legal aid not by the British government

 

1638

01:51:16,120 --> 01:51:20,280

but by the European Court itself

in Strasbourg,

 

1639

01:51:20,280 --> 01:51:24,320

which has looked at their case

and decided that they should be assisted

 

1640

01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:27,960

by lawyers

and therefore they have a team of lawyers

 

1641

01:51:28,320 --> 01:51:31,600

to assist them with their case

before that court.

 

1642

01:51:32,520 --> 01:51:35,640

The issues before the European Court

 

1643

01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:39,320

are huge in the first place.

 

1644

01:51:39,640 --> 01:51:43,800

The lack of legal aid for anybody

without money to defend themselves

 

1645

01:51:44,200 --> 01:51:48,840

against multinationals

who bring libel proceedings against them.

 

1646

01:51:49,360 --> 01:51:53,480

And secondly,

the the unfair burden on defendants

 

1647

01:51:53,760 --> 01:51:56,600

to prove the truth

of everything that may be in a leaflet

 

1648

01:51:56,600 --> 01:52:00,240

or a campaigning document

that they associate themselves with

 

1649

01:52:02,480 --> 01:52:02,920

that, too.

 

1650

01:52:02,920 --> 01:52:03,840

That's not clear enough.

 

1651

01:52:03,840 --> 01:52:05,560

There are a number

of very important issues

 

1652

01:52:05,560 --> 01:52:08,560

that the European Court

is going to have to consider.

 

1653

01:52:08,760 --> 01:52:13,560

In summary, there's the whole reason

for no legal right.

 

1654

01:52:13,600 --> 01:52:16,600

Let me start again

 

1655

01:52:16,680 --> 01:52:18,520

on first.

 

1656

01:52:18,520 --> 01:52:20,520

Yeah,

 

1657

01:52:20,520 --> 01:52:24,120

there are a number really important issues

that the European Court is going to

 

1658

01:52:24,120 --> 01:52:27,600

have to decide the first,

 

1659

01:52:27,600 --> 01:52:31,480

and it goes to the heart of libel law in

this country

 

1660

01:52:31,760 --> 01:52:36,120

is whether it's unfair to have a system

where one side is rich

 

1661

01:52:36,120 --> 01:52:40,160

and the other side is poor

and no, nothing is done to assist

 

1662

01:52:40,480 --> 01:52:43,400

the party that has no money.

 

1663

01:52:43,400 --> 01:52:46,040

So that's a huge issue

that they'll have to decide.

 

1664

01:52:46,040 --> 01:52:49,080

And secondly, and equally important,

 

1665

01:52:49,320 --> 01:52:55,320

whether whole of the libel law in

this country is unfair

 

1666

01:52:55,560 --> 01:53:00,640

because it requires far too much of a

defendant in proving so much of the case

 

1667

01:53:01,080 --> 01:53:04,080

rather than the claimant

to prove anything.

 

1668

01:53:04,200 --> 01:53:05,280

That's probably not clear enough, is it?

 

1669

01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:08,640

let me let me start again.

 

1670

01:53:08,640 --> 01:53:11,600

You can just think how to fundamentally

unfair two respects.

 

1671

01:53:11,600 --> 01:53:17,640

First, no legal aid to because yeah,

the European Court is going to have to

 

1672

01:53:17,640 --> 01:53:23,160

consider a number of fundamental issues

about English libel law,

 

1673

01:53:23,800 --> 01:53:27,240

both the issues

 

1674

01:53:29,280 --> 01:53:31,520

the European Court

is going to have to decide

 

1675

01:53:31,520 --> 01:53:35,400

some really important issues

about English libel law.

 

1676

01:53:35,760 --> 01:53:39,240

I think whether it's unfair

to have a system

 

1677

01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:42,560

which allows one party to be rich

and have lots of resources

 

1678

01:53:42,560 --> 01:53:46,600

and the other two have absolutely nothing

and no legal aid to assist them.

 

1679

01:53:46,600 --> 01:53:49,600

It's the only area of the law

where there's no legal aid.

 

1680

01:53:49,720 --> 01:53:53,520

And also on unfairness

is the whole question

 

1681

01:53:53,880 --> 01:53:58,360

of whether it's reasonable to expect

defendants to prove so much of their case,

 

1682

01:53:58,920 --> 01:54:02,400

particularly

when they're facing a multinational

 

1683

01:54:02,800 --> 01:54:06,240

and included within that is the question

 

1684

01:54:06,240 --> 01:54:09,360

of whether it's appropriate

for multinationals with their resources

 

1685

01:54:09,720 --> 01:54:13,200

to be able to bring libel proceedings

when they are

 

1686

01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:16,280

not accountable to the public

in any way.

 

1687

01:54:16,800 --> 01:54:17,520

The European

 

1688

01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:21,360

court is going to have to decide

some really important issues in this case.

 

1689

01:54:21,680 --> 01:54:26,960

First, whether it was fair

to have a trial for so long

 

1690

01:54:27,320 --> 01:54:30,480

in which one side had so many resources

 

1691

01:54:30,960 --> 01:54:35,400

and Dave and Helen on the other

had no money, no lawyers and no back up.

 

1692

01:54:35,800 --> 01:54:38,800

So that's fundamental

for the European Court.

 

1693

01:54:39,080 --> 01:54:44,520

Secondly, whether in those circumstances

it was fair to expect

 

1694

01:54:44,520 --> 01:54:47,600

Dave and Helen to prove all of the case,

 

1695

01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:50,960

I'd expect McDonald's to prove nothing.

 

1696

01:54:50,960 --> 01:54:54,760

So they're issues that

go right to the heart of libel law.

 

1697

01:54:54,960 --> 01:54:55,680

This country.

 

1698

01:54:58,480 --> 01:54:59,520

Included

 

1699

01:54:59,520 --> 01:55:03,240

in the issues for the European Court

is whether it's appropriate

 

1700

01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:06,680

for multinationals

to be able to sue for libel at all.

 

1701

01:55:06,960 --> 01:55:11,480

Government departments can't local

authorities can't sue for libel.

 

1702

01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:15,720

But many multinationals

have far more power

 

1703

01:55:15,720 --> 01:55:18,760

and wealth

than central or local government.

 

1704

01:55:19,120 --> 01:55:22,160

And so the question is

whether they ought to be able

 

1705

01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:25,320

to sue for libel

a bit long completed, isn't it?

 

1706

01:55:26,160 --> 01:55:29,080

It's long been recognized

that it would be

 

1707

01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:32,280

wrong for central and local government

 

1708

01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:36,400

to be able to see for libel because it

it restricts free speech.

 

1709

01:55:37,000 --> 01:55:39,960

And we're questioning

before the European Court

 

1710

01:55:39,960 --> 01:55:43,280

whether that rule

should be extended to multinationals.

 

1711

01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:48,000

They're in a very much more powerful

position than many local authorities.

 

1712

01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:49,800

And it inhibits free speech.

 

1713

01:55:49,800 --> 01:55:51,080

If they can't be criticized

 

1714

01:55:52,240 --> 01:55:53,640

for that,

 

1715

01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:56,640

it's a bit better,

 

1716

01:56:51,160 --> 01:56:54,240

said as well.

 

1717

01:57:02,520 --> 01:57:04,200

Can you take us around the blocks

 

1718

01:57:04,200 --> 01:57:07,680

for about 10 minutes

so she can film in the back of a cab? But.

 

1719

01:57:07,760 --> 01:57:10,160

All right. All right. You Sandra.

 

1720

01:57:10,160 --> 01:57:10,600

okay.

 

1721

01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:13,600

Thanks.

 

1722

01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:18,400

I've been working on a number of human

 

1723

01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:21,400

rights issues in the

 

1724

01:57:22,400 --> 01:57:25,720

many involving protesters,

but also doing a lot of work

 

1725

01:57:25,720 --> 01:57:29,560

with death penalty

people in the Caribbean.

 

1726

01:57:29,640 --> 01:57:33,600

So developing strategy

for challenging the death penalty.

 

1727

01:57:34,000 --> 01:57:38,800

As a result of some of that work,

I was made a QC in 2002.

 

1728

01:57:39,040 --> 01:57:41,600

You wanted that interview.

 

1729

01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:42,600

Anything else?

 

1730

01:57:42,600 --> 01:57:45,600

Yeah, a little.

 

1731

01:57:46,560 --> 01:57:47,600

I've been doing

 

1732

01:57:47,600 --> 01:57:50,720

a lot of cases that have interested me

 

1733

01:57:51,200 --> 01:57:55,160

since Damien Helen's case

was in the courts over here,

 

1734

01:57:55,880 --> 01:57:58,880

a lot of work on human rights,

and I wrote a book called

 

1735

01:58:00,240 --> 01:58:00,760

the European

 

1736

01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:05,120

Convention, which I let me start

and I hated it.

 

1737

01:58:05,280 --> 01:58:06,840

This is less than okay.

 

1738

01:58:06,840 --> 01:58:07,880

I know what you've been up to.

 

1739

01:58:07,880 --> 01:58:10,080

You can see it's just of that.

 

1740

01:58:10,080 --> 01:58:10,800

I was doing a number

 

1741

01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:14,360

of interesting things since David

and Helen's case was in the courts

 

1742

01:58:14,720 --> 01:58:18,360

over here, lots of them

involving human rights and protest,

 

1743

01:58:18,720 --> 01:58:23,320

but most specifically really doing death

row work in the Caribbean.

 

1744

01:58:24,000 --> 01:58:25,000

I'm trying to.

 

1745

01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:27,600

Towards the abolition

of the death penalty.

 

1746

01:58:27,600 --> 01:58:30,080

There you have. You have.

 

1747

01:58:30,080 --> 01:58:33,320

Well,

 

1748

01:58:34,040 --> 01:58:38,800

we've managed to

get rid of the mandatory death penalty in

 

1749

01:58:38,800 --> 01:58:42,760

a number of countries in the Caribbean,

which has been tremendous.

 

1750

01:58:43,800 --> 01:58:45,320

Does that mean you've actually said

people's lives?

 

1751

01:58:45,320 --> 01:58:47,560

And to think, well, that sounds a

 

1752

01:58:48,960 --> 01:58:51,960

bit cheesy.

 

1753

01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:57,600

I mean, the

 

1754

01:58:59,080 --> 01:58:59,640

the effects

 

1755

01:58:59,640 --> 01:59:04,640

of some of the cases in the Caribbean

have been profound, both obviously on the

 

1756

01:59:05,160 --> 01:59:08,920

individuals concerned

who who haven't been hung up

 

1757

01:59:08,960 --> 01:59:13,040

and also on the work we've been able

to do with the lawyers over there.

 

1758

01:59:13,040 --> 01:59:16,040

We've got a very good team of lawyers

throughout the Caribbean now

 

1759

01:59:16,320 --> 01:59:18,160

that we've worked

with on some of these issues.

 

1760

01:59:18,160 --> 01:59:21,160

So it's been a very uplifting experience.

 

1761

01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:22,800

All right.

 

1762

01:59:22,800 --> 01:59:24,840

That's all right. Yeah, not too cheesy.

 

1763

01:59:24,840 --> 01:59:27,840

That's a good Dave.

 

1764

01:59:28,320 --> 01:59:30,800

And Helen's case has always been

 

1765

01:59:30,800 --> 01:59:34,200

very important to me

from when I first met them

 

1766

01:59:34,200 --> 01:59:38,680

and working with them

through the difficult days of the trial.

 

1767

01:59:39,040 --> 01:59:42,880

And it's extremely important

 

1768

01:59:43,560 --> 01:59:45,720

that it's gone

all the way to the European Court of,

 

1769

01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:49,920

human rights, and it'll be one of the most

important decisions that court makes.

 

1770

01:59:49,920 --> 01:59:52,560

It will be a landmark, for that matter.

 

1771

01:59:52,560 --> 01:59:53,360

And for me,

 

1772

01:59:54,880 --> 01:59:57,240

there really

 

1773

01:59:57,240 --> 02:00:00,600

two main issues that we're going

to concentrate on at the hearing

 

1774

02:00:00,600 --> 02:00:01,480

in Strasbourg.

 

1775

02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:04,800

The first is the obvious unfairness

 

1776

02:00:05,320 --> 02:00:08,320

of criminal.

 

1777

02:00:13,320 --> 02:00:14,320

There are

 

1778

02:00:14,320 --> 02:00:17,320

two real issues that we're going

to concentrate on in Strasbourg.

 

1779

02:00:17,600 --> 02:00:22,000

The first is the obvious

unfairness of a system that allows

 

1780

02:00:22,000 --> 02:00:25,560

one party to have huge amounts

of resources and lawyers,

 

1781

02:00:26,080 --> 02:00:28,360

and the other two have none

without any legal.

 

1782

02:00:28,360 --> 02:00:33,840

And the other is

whether or not it's fair to expect

 

1783

02:00:33,920 --> 02:00:39,000

those without any money or resources

to prove the truth of everything that.

 

1784

02:00:39,000 --> 02:00:42,000

They're alleged to have said or done.

 

1785

02:00:42,440 --> 02:00:44,480

But one of the most important things

 

1786

02:00:44,480 --> 02:00:48,920

to appreciate about

this aspect of the case is that it's only

 

1787

02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:52,040

for libel proceedings

that you can't get legal aid.

 

1788

02:00:52,040 --> 02:00:56,880

So in every other kind of legal case,

if there is an imbalance

 

1789

02:00:56,880 --> 02:01:00,640

between the parties

and there are very often will be legal aid

 

1790

02:01:00,640 --> 02:01:03,840

is there to achieve the balance

that's required for justice

 

1791

02:01:04,400 --> 02:01:07,120

in this important area of free speech.

 

1792

02:01:07,120 --> 02:01:09,520

There is no such thing.

 

1793

02:01:09,520 --> 02:01:12,080

There is no legal aid.

It's completely arbitrary.

 

1794

02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:15,560

And that's one of the major

things we're going to be arguing.

 

1795

02:01:17,720 --> 02:01:18,640

When you have a

 

1796

02:01:18,640 --> 02:01:23,560

legal system that doesn't operate fairly

because there's a huge imbalance

 

1797

02:01:23,560 --> 02:01:26,800

between the parties, justice

could never be achieved,

 

1798

02:01:27,520 --> 02:01:32,040

however hard the individual judge tries

in any particular case.

 

1799

02:01:32,280 --> 02:01:35,760

And that's

why the proceedings in Strasbourg

 

1800

02:01:35,760 --> 02:01:39,960

are a challenge, really the system,

rather than a challenge to the decision

 

1801

02:01:39,960 --> 02:01:42,960

of the individual judge in the High Court.

 

1802

02:02:01,960 --> 02:02:04,320

When you have a huge inequality

 

1803

02:02:04,320 --> 02:02:07,840

between the parties to a dispute in court,

 

1804

02:02:08,520 --> 02:02:12,040

you will never achieve a just result,

however hard

 

1805

02:02:12,480 --> 02:02:15,480

the judge tries in a particular case

 

1806

02:02:15,480 --> 02:02:19,040

and that that the verdict is meaningless.

 

1807

02:02:19,800 --> 02:02:22,560

It doesn't really represent

 

1808

02:02:22,560 --> 02:02:25,840

the truth and it's unsatisfactory.

 

1809

02:02:25,960 --> 02:02:28,960

Everybody,

 

1810

02:02:31,200 --> 02:02:32,600

to understand what that was.

 

1811

02:02:32,600 --> 02:02:35,600

That's right.

 

1812

02:02:38,720 --> 02:02:40,440

I think our arguments

 

1813

02:02:40,440 --> 02:02:44,400

are very strong in terms of unfairness,

 

1814

02:02:44,720 --> 02:02:47,400

and most people think

 

1815

02:02:47,400 --> 02:02:52,040

the case was obviously unfair

and therefore we ought to wait

 

1816

02:02:52,560 --> 02:02:57,240

because of the huge implications

for the British government.

 

1817

02:02:57,240 --> 02:03:01,000

If we do it, things may be a little more

finely balanced,

 

1818

02:03:01,320 --> 02:03:04,920

but we're confident that our

arguments support to where

 

1819

02:03:07,200 --> 02:03:10,760

if we win

in Strasbourg, the government will have to

 

1820

02:03:10,840 --> 02:03:15,160

think about changing the law of libel.

 

1821

02:03:15,400 --> 02:03:20,640

One respect of legal aid,

but also much more fundamentally in terms

 

1822

02:03:20,640 --> 02:03:23,640

of let me start again.

 

1823

02:03:26,000 --> 02:03:29,120

If we succeed before the European courts,

 

1824

02:03:29,120 --> 02:03:32,000

the government is then under an obligation

to react to that judgment

 

1825

02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:35,000

and to change the law

if it needs changing.

 

1826

02:03:35,200 --> 02:03:40,720

And therefore, they will have to think

about legal aid in likable proceedings

 

1827

02:03:41,040 --> 02:03:44,240

and they'll have to think about

how to make libel fairer

 

1828

02:03:44,520 --> 02:03:47,520

so that they don't inhibit free speech.

 

1829

02:03:48,240 --> 02:03:50,480

It it's important to appreciate that

 

1830

02:03:50,480 --> 02:03:54,680

if the European Court finds that

 

1831

02:03:54,680 --> 02:03:58,960

David Haaland's trial was unfair,

the government can't ignore that judgment.

 

1832

02:03:59,040 --> 02:04:02,520

It's got to do something about it

and it must

 

1833

02:04:02,520 --> 02:04:05,520

therefore

think about changing the law itself

 

1834

02:04:05,720 --> 02:04:09,240

to put right whatever the European Court

has said, cause the problem.

 

1835

02:04:11,560 --> 02:04:13,320

If David Hulme win in

 

1836

02:04:13,320 --> 02:04:17,760

Strasbourg

and the government is forced to respond

 

1837

02:04:17,760 --> 02:04:20,840

by changing the law,

that would be a major victory

 

1838

02:04:20,840 --> 02:04:23,640

not only for David Heller,

but for everybody that's argued

 

1839

02:04:23,640 --> 02:04:27,800

for many years that the libel laws

inhibit free speech.

 

1840

02:04:28,120 --> 02:04:30,760

It be tremendous vindication.

 

1841

02:04:30,760 --> 02:04:35,120

50 years of legal Struggle

by David Heller.

 

1842

02:04:36,880 --> 02:04:39,880

And what will it mean for

freedom of speech

 

1843

02:04:40,480 --> 02:04:43,480

campaigning and what

 

1844

02:04:45,960 --> 02:04:47,040

It will be

 

1845

02:04:47,040 --> 02:04:51,440

a tremendous boost for free speech

because it will remove

 

1846

02:04:51,720 --> 02:04:55,600

some of the basic unfairness

in libel law.

 

1847

02:04:55,920 --> 02:05:00,000

And that is obviously to be welcomed.

 

1848

02:05:00,920 --> 02:05:02,680

Some of it would.

 

1849

02:05:02,680 --> 02:05:05,680

So I just

 

1850

02:05:09,880 --> 02:05:11,600

I think if we win

 

1851

02:05:11,600 --> 02:05:15,960

and the libel laws changed,

it will become different

 

1852

02:05:16,080 --> 02:05:20,640

and it will cease to be seen as a law

only for the rich and famous

 

1853

02:05:21,080 --> 02:05:24,720

and will become a law

which protects free speech

 

1854

02:05:24,880 --> 02:05:29,760

for everybody and in particular for those

that don't have wealth and power,

 

1855

02:05:31,200 --> 02:05:33,280

there will obviously be ramifications

 

1856

02:05:33,280 --> 02:05:36,680

for the public

 

1857

02:05:36,680 --> 02:05:39,680

debate of issues of real importance.

 

1858

02:05:39,920 --> 02:05:44,480

One feature of libel laws at

the moment is that debate is obvious.

 

1859

02:05:45,160 --> 02:05:48,160

Let me start again

 

1860

02:05:51,960 --> 02:05:54,960

unfair libel laws

 

1861

02:05:55,800 --> 02:05:59,560

have the effect of dampening debate

on important issues

 

1862

02:05:59,560 --> 02:06:00,960

because people are scared

 

1863

02:06:00,960 --> 02:06:03,960

that they're going to have proceedings

brought against them.

 

1864

02:06:04,320 --> 02:06:07,600

And even if they think they can prove

what they're saying is true,

 

1865

02:06:08,000 --> 02:06:11,000

they may not have the money

or the time to go to court.

 

1866

02:06:11,480 --> 02:06:14,480

And therefore unfair libel laws mean.

 

1867

02:06:14,480 --> 02:06:17,760

Some people won't say what they believe

genuinely to be true

 

1868

02:06:18,480 --> 02:06:21,840

and public debate suffers

in those circumstances.

 

1869

02:06:22,480 --> 02:06:27,720

If we win this case, I'm hopefully

that will change and that will be more

 

1870

02:06:27,720 --> 02:06:31,360

informed, better informed debate

about matters of real importance.

 

1871

02:06:31,360 --> 02:06:33,880

And that's got to be a good thing.

 

1872

02:06:33,880 --> 02:06:35,080

It's all right. It's really good.

 

1873

02:06:36,080 --> 02:06:39,360

Well, we're on our

way to the European Court of Human Rights.

 

1874

02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:42,360

At long last, we've exchanged

 

1875

02:06:42,840 --> 02:06:45,960

very full written submissions

with the government

 

1876

02:06:46,240 --> 02:06:50,040

and lodged numerous documents

with the Strasbourg court,

 

1877

02:06:50,040 --> 02:06:53,680

and we now have the chance

to make a presentation to the court

 

1878

02:06:53,920 --> 02:06:57,640

highlighting

the most important parts of our case.

 

1879

02:06:58,800 --> 02:07:00,960

It's important to appreciate

that even to get to

 

1880

02:07:00,960 --> 02:07:06,600

this stage is success

because the European Court will filter out

 

1881

02:07:06,600 --> 02:07:11,040

cases that things are hopeless

and which don't raise important issues.

 

1882

02:07:11,360 --> 02:07:15,720

So the very fact that we're in court

demonstrates that

 

1883

02:07:15,720 --> 02:07:20,000

we have a chance of success and that

the court thinks it's very important issue

 

1884

02:07:20,800 --> 02:07:23,800

the right

 

1885

02:07:24,480 --> 02:07:25,880

the government is arguing

 

1886

02:07:25,880 --> 02:07:28,880

that there's nothing wrong with a system

 

1887

02:07:28,880 --> 02:07:33,720

that allows one party to have sorry,

 

1888

02:07:38,680 --> 02:07:40,240

but the

 

1889

02:07:40,240 --> 02:07:43,520

Government's arguing that there's nothing

unfair about a system

 

1890

02:07:44,040 --> 02:07:49,200

where there is no legal for those

that can't afford to represent themselves.

 

1891

02:07:49,600 --> 02:07:53,760

That's an astonishing argument,

 

1892

02:07:53,760 --> 02:07:58,400

but it's one that they're very keen to win

because of the implications of losing.

 

1893

02:07:58,800 --> 02:08:02,200

They're also seeking to argue

that libel law

 

1894

02:08:02,400 --> 02:08:06,960

in England is perfectly fair

and there's nothing to worry about.

 

1895

02:08:07,320 --> 02:08:11,680

Again, we don't think that's

a particularly strong argument,

 

1896

02:08:12,920 --> 02:08:15,480

but it's been recognized

 

1897

02:08:15,480 --> 02:08:19,560

for a long time

that central and local government

 

1898

02:08:20,080 --> 02:08:23,600

shouldn't be allowed to sue for libel

because that inhibits free

 

1899

02:08:23,600 --> 02:08:26,880

speech and stops

people criticizing what they're doing.

 

1900

02:08:27,320 --> 02:08:31,440

And one of the points

we want to bring up in the European court

 

1901

02:08:31,440 --> 02:08:35,440

is that many multinationals, such as

McDonald's, have far more power and wealth

 

1902

02:08:35,800 --> 02:08:39,960

than local authorities, and they won't be

subject to the same rule.

 

1903

02:08:40,120 --> 02:08:44,040

They have the ability to

defend themselves without going to court

 

1904

02:08:44,400 --> 02:08:46,360

against two people with no money.

 

1905

02:08:49,080 --> 02:08:52,320

One of the other

points we want to raise with the court

 

1906

02:08:52,320 --> 02:08:56,320

is whether or not multinationals

should be allowed to sue for libel at all.

 

1907

02:08:56,960 --> 02:09:00,720

It's long been recognized

that governments, for example,

 

1908

02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:04,920

shouldn't be allowed to sue for libel

because it inhibits free speech.

 

1909

02:09:04,920 --> 02:09:08,160

It stops people criticizing them,

and that's not thought to be a good thing.

 

1910

02:09:08,880 --> 02:09:12,720

And multinationals

such as McDonald's very often

 

1911

02:09:12,720 --> 02:09:16,200

have far more power and wealth

than many small countries.

 

1912

02:09:16,960 --> 02:09:20,320

And so the same rule

really ought to apply to them.

 

1913

02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:25,440

They can get their message across through

the television, through other media

 

1914

02:09:25,440 --> 02:09:29,080

and through advertising,

and they don't need to go to court

 

1915

02:09:29,320 --> 02:09:33,200

through ancient and unfair

libel proceedings.

 

1916

02:09:34,280 --> 02:09:37,280

It's about

 

1917

02:09:37,480 --> 02:09:39,400

I'll just jump on and yeah,

 

1918

02:09:42,640 --> 02:09:44,400

McDonald's

 

1919

02:09:44,400 --> 02:09:48,640

could never have dreamt

when they decided to bring proceedings

 

1920

02:09:48,880 --> 02:09:54,040

against, protesters

on a Saturday afternoon in North London

 

1921

02:09:54,600 --> 02:09:57,600

that they were going to end up

15 years later

 

1922

02:09:57,640 --> 02:09:59,680

with a case

in the European Court of Human Rights.

 

1923

02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:02,960

The most important and influential court

in the whole of Europe

 

1924

02:10:03,240 --> 02:10:06,760

with a major challenge

to the entire libel laws

 

1925

02:10:07,000 --> 02:10:10,680

and 15 years of adverse

publicity for McDonald's.

 

1926

02:10:10,920 --> 02:10:14,440

So the case is very curious

 

1927

02:10:14,440 --> 02:10:17,440

and very important in that respect.

 

1928

02:10:18,240 --> 02:10:20,880

When I first met David Hallam,

 

1929

02:10:20,880 --> 02:10:24,440

we had to discuss whether it was sensible

 

1930

02:10:24,440 --> 02:10:28,320

to even enter a defense in this case

because it was going to be so difficult

 

1931

02:10:28,760 --> 02:10:31,920

and they decided

 

1932

02:10:32,240 --> 02:10:36,600

that they would defend,

that they would stand for free speech.

 

1933

02:10:36,600 --> 02:10:43,040

And it's a tremendous tribute to that,

that they've managed what they've managed

 

1934

02:10:43,040 --> 02:10:47,120

to achieve in the last 15 years,

and they're now on the point

 

1935

02:10:47,120 --> 02:10:53,280

of challenging the UK government

for the maintenance of unfair

 

1936

02:10:53,280 --> 02:10:57,480

libel laws in one of the most important

courts in the world.

 

1937

02:10:59,200 --> 02:11:00,480

One of the

 

1938

02:11:00,480 --> 02:11:06,080

things this case demonstrates

is just how powerful you can be

 

1939

02:11:06,080 --> 02:11:09,960

if you're an individual

that fundamentally believes

 

1940

02:11:09,960 --> 02:11:14,680

in what you're fighting for

and is committed to fighting to the end.

 

1941

02:11:15,480 --> 02:11:18,560

And that puts people

a very powerful position.

 

1942

02:11:19,320 --> 02:11:22,320

And that's really the position

that David Hallett around.

 

1943

02:11:22,840 --> 02:11:25,200

You'll have to mix around with that

as a long thing.

 

1944

02:11:25,200 --> 02:11:26,280

It doesn't make much sense.

 

1945

02:11:26,280 --> 02:11:29,760

Do you think it's changed you at all

in this case, Do you think, blimey,

 

1946

02:11:36,320 --> 02:11:39,320

one of the ways in which this case is

 

1947

02:11:41,280 --> 02:11:42,160

affected me

 

1948

02:11:42,160 --> 02:11:45,560

is in the way

it's humbled me and other lawyers.

 

1949

02:11:45,840 --> 02:11:50,040

It shows that ordinary individuals

 

1950

02:11:50,640 --> 02:11:54,640

committed to their cause

can grapple with legal issues

 

1951

02:11:54,640 --> 02:11:59,120

that we pretend are very complicated

and can win against the odds.

 

1952

02:11:59,480 --> 02:12:02,240

So it's been very important to me

 

1953

02:12:02,240 --> 02:12:05,640

as an individual

and as a lawyer in that way.

 

1954

02:12:06,600 --> 02:12:07,560

As I write this,

 

1955

02:12:41,600 --> 02:12:44,600

he was.

 

1956

02:12:49,080 --> 02:12:50,400

I know, but just there's not many.

 

1957

02:12:50,400 --> 02:12:53,240

So wait until the bills face court.

 

1958

02:12:53,240 --> 02:12:55,720

I don't

 

1959

02:12:55,720 --> 02:12:58,680

know.

 

1960

02:12:58,680 --> 02:13:01,520

It's not a sort of

 

1961

02:13:01,520 --> 02:13:04,520

sit down, sit down, sit down

 

1962

02:13:21,960 --> 02:13:41,080

with John.

 

1963

02:13:41,520 --> 02:13:44,520

And he's

 

1964

02:13:47,080 --> 02:13:50,080

so where do

and what if you want to make this

 

1965

02:13:50,760 --> 02:13:53,760

about what

 

1966

02:13:55,000 --> 02:13:58,000

I just to speak to today.

 

1967

02:13:58,600 --> 02:14:01,600

Yeah.

 

1968

02:14:06,840 --> 02:14:09,720

Want to hear things like yeah.

 

1969

02:14:09,720 --> 02:14:12,720

I just don't know

 

1970

02:14:16,120 --> 02:14:19,120

the make kitchen

 

1971

02:14:19,920 --> 02:14:22,200

your best

 

1972

02:14:22,200 --> 02:14:24,720

thing I'm

 

1973

02:14:24,720 --> 02:14:28,480

one of those 20 you know we get impatient

 

1974

02:14:29,840 --> 02:14:32,840

well is a bit

 

1975

02:14:33,600 --> 02:14:36,600

yes it's

 

1976

02:14:51,440 --> 02:15:21,000

like yeah i00

 

1977

02:15:22,920 --> 02:15:41,000

yeah we speak

 

1978

02:15:47,880 --> 02:15:50,280

on Wednesday September 2000 with the court

 

1979

02:15:50,280 --> 02:15:54,600

under Article 34 of the convention

by the United Kingdom.

 

1980

02:15:54,600 --> 02:15:56,720

That's what I was telling Steve and Mr.

 

1981

02:15:56,720 --> 02:15:58,640

David Morris

 

1982

02:15:58,640 --> 02:16:01,080

delegation was allocated

to the fourth section

 

1983

02:16:01,080 --> 02:16:04,440

of the court persuading a group

to paragraph one of the rules.

 

1984

02:16:04,440 --> 02:16:05,000

Of course,

 

1985

02:16:06,360 --> 02:16:07,680

the application was deferred

 

1986

02:16:07,680 --> 02:16:10,680

admissible on 6th April 2004.

 

1987

02:16:11,680 --> 02:16:14,400

Go Governments are represented

by their attorney, Mr.

 

1988

02:16:14,400 --> 02:16:17,400

Derrick Walton, assisted by Mr.

 

1989

02:16:18,040 --> 02:16:19,440

Singh's counsel, Mr.

 

1990

02:16:19,440 --> 02:16:21,200

Alec Brown adviser. Mr.

 

1991

02:16:21,200 --> 02:16:23,560

David very adviser, and Mr.

 

1992

02:16:23,560 --> 02:16:26,480

Robert Wright adviser.

 

1993

02:16:26,480 --> 02:16:28,360

The applicants are represented by Mr.

 

1994

02:16:28,360 --> 02:16:30,800

Keir Starmer, leading counsel by Mr.

 

1995

02:16:30,800 --> 02:16:34,480

Mark Stevens, the acting as representative

assisted by Mr.

 

1996

02:16:34,480 --> 02:16:35,880

Anthony Hudson.

 

1997

02:16:35,880 --> 02:16:37,760

Junior Counselor Miscarriages are right.

 

1998

02:16:37,760 --> 02:16:40,840

Adviser The documents are also present.

 

1999

02:16:42,200 --> 02:16:45,680

I will jump to representative from

the application in the name of the Court.

 

2000

02:16:46,960 --> 02:16:49,440

Having consulted

the agent of the government

 

2001

02:16:49,440 --> 02:16:51,680

and the representative of the applicant,

 

2002

02:16:51,680 --> 02:16:54,680

I have determined

the order addresses as follows.

 

2003

02:16:55,360 --> 02:16:58,320

Mr. Starmer, for the applicants

will speak first and then Mr.

 

2004

02:16:58,320 --> 02:16:58,720

Walden.

 

2005

02:16:58,720 --> 02:17:00,520

For the Government I call Mr.

 

2006

02:17:00,520 --> 02:17:03,520

Keir Starmer.

 

2007

02:17:03,640 --> 02:17:05,240

Mr. President,

 

2008

02:17:05,240 --> 02:17:07,560

honorable Members for families.

 

2009

02:17:09,320 --> 02:17:10,480

This case is about

 

2010

02:17:10,480 --> 02:17:14,560

rights to people without having

 

2011

02:17:14,560 --> 02:17:18,280

to engage in a public campaign

or loss of public interest.

 

2012

02:17:18,320 --> 02:17:21,320

The move towards the campaigning

 

2013

02:17:21,720 --> 02:17:23,840

was a campaign to draw attention

 

2014

02:17:23,840 --> 02:17:26,920

to a number of other features

of the fast food industry.

 

2015

02:17:27,480 --> 02:17:31,120

It was a campaign

instigated by on of retail,

 

2016

02:17:31,680 --> 02:17:36,080

a small group of women who would campaign

 

2017

02:17:36,080 --> 02:17:39,080

principally

on environmental and social issues

 

2018

02:17:39,200 --> 02:17:42,520

and its global distribution

of a sixth page leaflet

 

2019

02:17:42,880 --> 02:17:45,960

who want done everything

 

2020

02:17:46,080 --> 02:17:49,040

they didn't want you to know.

 

2021

02:17:49,040 --> 02:17:53,160

The Liverpool Post

at the time was never really awareness

 

2022

02:17:53,400 --> 02:17:56,400

and concerned about issues

affecting the environment.

 

2023

02:17:56,680 --> 02:17:59,480

The relationship at the time was

 

2024

02:17:59,480 --> 02:18:02,480

that, well,

 

2025

02:18:03,280 --> 02:18:04,840

it was written in a campaign

 

2026

02:18:04,840 --> 02:18:08,800

to stop using humor or exaggerate.

 

2027

02:18:09,640 --> 02:18:12,640

It was out of interest of members

of the public

 

2028

02:18:12,720 --> 02:18:17,000

or limited to those who wrote about this

asking for something.

 

2029

02:18:17,920 --> 02:18:22,040

It was essentially a contribution

by competing activists

 

2030

02:18:22,440 --> 02:18:25,600

to participate

in the public interest groups.

 

2031

02:18:26,520 --> 02:18:28,680

Since neither Greenpeace

 

2032

02:18:28,680 --> 02:18:32,800

nor the Arctic is involved

campaigns and vocal power,

 

2033

02:18:32,800 --> 02:18:36,680

it was the only issue

that it really mattered.

 

2034

02:18:37,680 --> 02:18:38,360

It followed a

 

2035

02:18:38,360 --> 02:18:43,400

long tradition in, the UK and Europe,

of the expression of protest

 

2036

02:18:43,920 --> 02:18:46,920

through the to

 

2037

02:18:48,240 --> 02:18:51,240

the ground for two reasons.

 

2038

02:18:52,040 --> 02:18:54,200

First, it of the public interest,

 

2039

02:18:54,200 --> 02:18:57,760

at least labor for the environment

 

2040

02:18:58,400 --> 02:19:02,400

and on the accountability

law specifically. But

 

2041

02:19:03,560 --> 02:19:06,120

secondly, because it emphasized the fact

 

2042

02:19:06,120 --> 02:19:09,120

that the we were simply sowing pigs.

 

2043

02:19:09,240 --> 02:19:14,160

I'm disappointed that a Supreme Court

to take into account

 

2044

02:19:14,600 --> 02:19:17,600

in interpreting the convention

in this case,

 

2045

02:19:18,480 --> 02:19:21,000

the government accepts the principle

 

2046

02:19:21,000 --> 02:19:23,720

that the limits of acceptable criticism,

 

2047

02:19:23,720 --> 02:19:26,720

while excessive confidence,

 

2048

02:19:27,000 --> 02:19:30,640

a principle driver

in the decision to fire across the UK.

 

2049

02:19:31,440 --> 02:19:35,560

But they seem to argue that this principle

is not available to the armed forces

 

2050

02:19:35,880 --> 02:19:38,520

because. They are not

 

2051

02:19:38,520 --> 02:19:41,840

formally representing the public interest.

 

2052

02:19:42,360 --> 02:19:46,440

See paragraph $3.17 Official stations.

 

2053

02:19:46,560 --> 02:19:47,440

In this context,

 

2054

02:19:48,760 --> 02:19:49,520

the answer

 

2055

02:19:49,520 --> 02:19:52,520

to this is far too narrow approach

 

2056

02:19:53,280 --> 02:19:56,280

pluralism, which is the of law,

 

2057

02:19:56,400 --> 02:19:59,400

requires very much the opportunity

 

2058

02:19:59,520 --> 02:20:02,800

to engage with the officer talking to us,

 

2059

02:20:03,320 --> 02:20:06,320

whatever the status, what resources

 

2060

02:20:06,360 --> 02:20:09,360

whether that views are involved,

 

2061

02:20:10,840 --> 02:20:13,840

that are welcome to join in this common

debate

 

2062

02:20:14,120 --> 02:20:17,680

on these massive public information

about the players,

 

2063

02:20:18,720 --> 02:20:22,200

the McDonald's chose

instead to adopt a strategy

 

2064

02:20:22,720 --> 02:20:26,480

of identifying anyone responsible

for the Dogs campaign

 

2065

02:20:26,840 --> 02:20:29,840

so that they could go quiet proceedings

against it

 

2066

02:20:30,760 --> 02:20:32,560

tonight and in September.

 

2067

02:20:32,560 --> 02:20:35,360

Take advantage of McDonald's.

 

2068

02:20:35,360 --> 02:20:38,360

You can start to do your first inquiry

 

2069

02:20:38,640 --> 02:20:41,640

to infiltrate groups

 

2070

02:20:41,880 --> 02:20:45,280

as a result of some climate legislation

as intended, users

 

2071

02:20:45,680 --> 02:20:49,080

of groups posing as crisis

 

2072

02:20:50,200 --> 02:20:52,920

by rolling some investigations

 

2073

02:20:52,920 --> 02:20:57,560

that can help to provide the answer

because of what enthusiasm

 

2074

02:20:57,600 --> 02:21:02,600

or a genuine individuals attended

large groups meetings was going

 

2075

02:21:05,120 --> 02:21:06,640

on The caterers

 

2076

02:21:06,640 --> 02:21:10,400

activities of the private investigators

with the advice groups

 

2077

02:21:10,800 --> 02:21:13,800

include include distributed the very least

 

2078

02:21:14,200 --> 02:21:17,200

that McDonald's kept

 

2079

02:21:17,840 --> 02:21:19,680

what is private investigators

 

2080

02:21:19,680 --> 02:21:24,120

find out notes that the outcomes

 

2081

02:21:24,880 --> 02:21:27,120

were the authors of the that

 

2082

02:21:27,120 --> 02:21:29,800

that has never bit too much

 

2083

02:21:29,800 --> 02:21:32,440

for other private investigators found out

 

2084

02:21:32,440 --> 02:21:36,320

what was the outcome to participate

in the activities of the group.

 

2085

02:21:36,320 --> 02:21:39,320

This I shared this article those I was

 

2086

02:21:40,000 --> 02:21:43,600

the first time who do not in common

involved

 

2087

02:21:43,600 --> 02:21:49,760

in the activities of some previous

until 102 degree was found.

 

2088

02:21:49,760 --> 02:21:53,920

It turned out on a few occasions to

those were treated

 

2089

02:21:54,360 --> 02:21:57,840

that was attended of

in March of that year.

 

2090

02:21:58,320 --> 02:22:01,320

Which reason was available to anyone who

 

2091

02:22:01,560 --> 02:22:04,000

to put up

 

2092

02:22:04,000 --> 02:22:06,720

the second document only to discover

 

2093

02:22:06,720 --> 02:22:09,880

Greenpeace, for example, in the 1980s,

 

2094

02:22:10,680 --> 02:22:13,680

but was found participated

in the production of these leaflet

 

2095

02:22:14,000 --> 02:22:18,400

on the basis

of the very same box, and that,

 

2096

02:22:19,440 --> 02:22:19,680

you know,

 

2097

02:22:19,680 --> 02:22:22,680

the proceedings not related to

the partnership,

 

2098

02:22:23,400 --> 02:22:26,400

not content it's an error.

 

2099

02:22:26,440 --> 02:22:28,880

An error was directive by the

 

2100

02:22:28,880 --> 02:22:31,880

of the draft in the end

 

2101

02:22:31,920 --> 02:22:35,000

of the letter

without solicitor wrote to the court

 

2102

02:22:35,280 --> 02:22:38,920

in the light which was explained

the error was rejected.

 

2103

02:22:38,920 --> 02:22:42,200

This didn't whistleblowers in strict sense

 

2104

02:22:43,560 --> 02:22:45,600

despite the government's claim

 

2105

02:22:45,600 --> 02:22:49,760

of trying to assist the opportunities

to ensure fairness in their case,

 

2106

02:22:50,400 --> 02:22:54,880

neither he nor anyone else

alerts them to this outlandish issue

 

2107

02:22:55,680 --> 02:23:00,320

until the job was to defend

against the up performance point.

 

2108

02:23:01,200 --> 02:23:05,000

It is an essential part of

the text of that demonstration

 

2109

02:23:05,840 --> 02:23:08,160

that the experience of the lack of a legal

 

2110

02:23:08,160 --> 02:23:11,160

specialist,

 

2111

02:23:11,240 --> 02:23:15,360

the last letter to a number

of respondents in the case, it is

 

2112

02:23:17,520 --> 02:23:18,000

wrong.

 

2113

02:23:18,000 --> 02:23:21,600

Not that those rules McDonald's

 

2114

02:23:22,520 --> 02:23:26,560

proceedings against

that is a three arms for defamation

 

2115

02:23:27,160 --> 02:23:29,760

on the basis of their participation

in the of Douglas

 

2116

02:23:29,760 --> 02:23:33,080

County of the group is not

 

2117

02:23:33,160 --> 02:23:36,200

led to the lowest common

in English to history

 

2118

02:23:36,880 --> 02:23:39,960

in which the Americans

were in a huge political position

 

2119

02:23:40,440 --> 02:23:43,880

in defending themselves

because of two central features

 

2120

02:23:43,880 --> 02:23:46,880

of domestic

 

2121

02:23:47,680 --> 02:23:48,360

legal aid.

 

2122

02:23:48,360 --> 02:23:50,200

It's not letter at the time.

 

2123

02:23:50,200 --> 02:23:53,200

I don't see these whatever the demands,

 

2124

02:23:55,080 --> 02:23:57,680

the legal and legally

 

2125

02:23:57,680 --> 02:24:02,600

operating as a blanket prohibition

legal in defamation proceedings

 

2126

02:24:03,160 --> 02:24:06,160

without the assistance

 

2127

02:24:06,240 --> 02:24:09,400

for the Americans,

because all of these parties,

 

2128

02:24:10,680 --> 02:24:13,680

after the arms cases finished the planning

 

2129

02:24:14,040 --> 02:24:17,160

in England was lifted in April 2000.

 

2130

02:24:19,360 --> 02:24:22,520

The central feature that made government's

position deeply

 

2131

02:24:22,520 --> 02:24:26,120

difficult

in defending the suit against the top dogs

 

2132

02:24:26,560 --> 02:24:31,360

was that the domestic law of the nation

is weighed heavily against defendants.

 

2133

02:24:33,000 --> 02:24:35,400

If anyone was

 

2134

02:24:35,400 --> 02:24:38,520

responsible, even in the slightest

when provocative,

 

2135

02:24:39,600 --> 02:24:43,120

for example,

if they take part in campaign,

 

2136

02:24:44,080 --> 02:24:49,320

we should be in a position

to prove the true of each

 

2137

02:24:49,320 --> 02:24:53,400

and every single fact

contained within the publication

 

2138

02:24:54,120 --> 02:24:57,480

in creating a receptacle

which would comment on the population.

 

2139

02:24:57,680 --> 02:24:59,600

These tells

 

2140

02:24:59,600 --> 02:25:01,520

us this, sir,

 

2141

02:25:01,520 --> 02:25:04,720

in page three of the letter you see,

 

2142

02:25:05,320 --> 02:25:08,320

it is no offense to violence to prove

 

2143

02:25:08,680 --> 02:25:11,360

and the fact that you do not believe

 

2144

02:25:11,360 --> 02:25:14,360

the statement to be true

 

2145

02:25:14,400 --> 02:25:16,800

in respect of those pictures

 

2146

02:25:16,800 --> 02:25:19,800

that two families

 

2147

02:25:19,840 --> 02:25:23,120

each in isolation, establishes a bond

 

2148

02:25:23,800 --> 02:25:26,800

that is a right huge.

 

2149

02:25:27,600 --> 02:25:30,600

They provide an optional claim

 

2150

02:25:31,000 --> 02:25:33,600

to Article six in Article two

 

2151

02:25:33,600 --> 02:25:36,600

that should be read.

 

2152

02:25:37,560 --> 02:25:38,320

Yeah. Yeah.

 

2153

02:25:38,320 --> 02:25:43,400

Because first, the burden of proof

imposed by those people will

 

2154

02:25:44,640 --> 02:25:46,400

be the effect

 

2155

02:25:46,400 --> 02:25:50,240

of the burden of proof

in inhibiting freedom of expression,

 

2156

02:25:50,880 --> 02:25:54,160

freedom to the population

for their own property.

 

2157

02:25:54,160 --> 02:25:57,760

Be assess whether or not you determine

 

2158

02:25:58,200 --> 02:26:03,400

the second defense of proceedings

is concerned.

 

2159

02:26:04,160 --> 02:26:07,040

The absence of other services

 

2160

02:26:07,040 --> 02:26:10,040

you cannot impose upon

 

2161

02:26:10,680 --> 02:26:12,680

the justice can be achieved

 

2162

02:26:12,680 --> 02:26:15,320

if the parties to a legal dispute

 

2163

02:26:15,320 --> 02:26:19,280

I to deserves a test of whose evidence

 

2164

02:26:19,560 --> 02:26:22,560

its circumstances are reasonable

because it is

 

2165

02:26:23,200 --> 02:26:25,200

not based upon a profound

 

2166

02:26:25,200 --> 02:26:28,200

respect for a number of reasons.

 

2167

02:26:28,320 --> 02:26:31,320

Each of the court verdicts.

 

2168

02:26:32,760 --> 02:26:34,080

It is convenient

 

2169

02:26:34,080 --> 02:26:37,080

to stop the stark realities

 

2170

02:26:37,960 --> 02:26:41,760

of the time, at least of the time of

these proceedings were issued

 

2171

02:26:42,080 --> 02:26:47,040

against the articles that were around

that was not based on dress rules.

 

2172

02:26:47,280 --> 02:26:49,120

In a total of 53 times

 

2173

02:26:50,360 --> 02:26:52,120

total sales amounted to

 

2174

02:26:52,120 --> 02:26:55,960

about 19.7 billion U.S.

 

2175

02:26:55,960 --> 02:26:57,600

dollars

 

2176

02:26:57,600 --> 02:26:59,920

by the end of the 1995.

 

2177

02:26:59,920 --> 02:27:02,320

One years, five years.

 

2178

02:27:02,320 --> 02:27:05,360

But there are about 18,400

 

2179

02:27:05,760 --> 02:27:08,760

restaurants in a total of 29

 

2180

02:27:09,120 --> 02:27:12,440

total sales,

but that amounted to 30 billion.

 

2181

02:27:12,440 --> 02:27:14,680

The dollars

 

2182

02:27:14,680 --> 02:27:17,120

McDonald's will release was

 

2183

02:27:17,120 --> 02:27:20,120

welcome to the appeal in this case,

not close.

 

2184

02:27:20,280 --> 02:27:23,760

A joint venture

that was with the Madison owners, but

 

2185

02:27:25,080 --> 02:27:26,920

nonetheless, nothing beyond that.

 

2186

02:27:26,920 --> 02:27:28,840

It was in that regard.

 

2187

02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:31,640

What was.

 

2188

02:27:31,640 --> 02:27:34,720

McDonald's, on the other hand,

were represented in all the statements

 

2189

02:27:35,240 --> 02:27:39,400

by Queen's Counsel and Counsel

specializing in not

 

2190

02:27:40,440 --> 02:27:43,920

supporting by two solicitor's office

in England.

 

2191

02:27:45,120 --> 02:27:47,040

In addition, the legal team

 

2192

02:27:47,040 --> 02:27:50,040

don't have access

 

2193

02:27:51,000 --> 02:27:54,000

to influence for all of these reasons,

 

2194

02:27:55,560 --> 02:27:57,840

for the duration of the time we are

 

2195

02:27:57,840 --> 02:28:01,400

told to do

was to keep gather as it were, continues

 

2196

02:28:02,960 --> 02:28:05,760

to be stopped after the,

 

2197

02:28:05,760 --> 02:28:08,240

you know,

 

2198

02:28:08,240 --> 02:28:11,240

that's the length of time

 

2199

02:28:11,640 --> 02:28:14,640

here, a period, two years of six months

 

2200

02:28:15,120 --> 02:28:17,760

time is the longest ever trial in U.S.

 

2201

02:28:17,760 --> 02:28:20,760

history either criminal, civil,

 

2202

02:28:21,720 --> 02:28:25,360

impaneled, nine years, six months,

 

2203

02:28:26,600 --> 02:28:28,640

a Hutton such

 

2204

02:28:28,640 --> 02:28:29,840

trial.

 

2205

02:28:29,840 --> 02:28:32,840

So many of the witness statements

related to the still

 

2206

02:28:33,080 --> 02:28:36,120

are the whole part 40,000

 

2207

02:28:36,240 --> 02:32:00,800

and as a consequence of 23

 

2208

02:32:01,560 --> 02:32:04,560

because it got the right

not to just walking

 

2209

02:36:44,840 --> 02:36:48,360

into expensive

 

2210

02:36:57,360 --> 02:37:06,160

and to make the wider

 

2211

02:37:06,160 --> 02:37:09,160

public interest open because the client

 

2212

02:37:09,480 --> 02:37:11,440

because

 

2213

02:37:11,440 --> 02:37:13,480

this is generally

 

2214

02:37:13,480 --> 02:37:16,480

most sensitive customer,

 

2215

02:37:20,080 --> 02:37:23,280

is therefore money is not the resource.

 

2216

02:37:23,280 --> 02:37:26,280

The scarcity of resources is a false point

from sales.

 

2217

02:37:37,320 --> 02:37:40,440

That right The group of people

who make this decision.

 

2218

02:37:40,440 --> 02:37:44,760

There are six of them

they deal with today within the global

 

2219

02:37:47,240 --> 02:37:48,600

haven.

 

2220

02:37:48,600 --> 02:37:52,640

Now perhaps

it's just because they don't associate.

 

2221

02:37:52,680 --> 02:37:55,040

So it's not how he said.

 

2222

02:37:55,040 --> 02:37:57,920

He just most successful themselves.

 

2223

02:37:57,920 --> 02:38:00,920

So I'm typically through then for that to

 

2224

02:38:01,800 --> 02:38:04,800

then produce another lethal

 

2225

02:38:18,480 --> 02:38:24,960

to serve five

 

2226

02:39:11,480 --> 02:39:19,680

that is

 

2227

02:39:23,120 --> 02:39:26,440

just of the same as

 

2228

02:39:30,560 --> 02:39:33,560

yeah yeah

 

2229

02:39:34,080 --> 02:39:37,080

so I don't know

 

2230

02:39:37,680 --> 02:39:39,360

who that was nice is great.

 

2231

02:39:39,360 --> 02:39:40,120

I hope the government's

 

2232

02:39:40,120 --> 02:39:44,360

I'm totally on the defensive certainly on,

on the lack of legal aid which they now

 

2233

02:39:44,360 --> 02:39:47,960

reckon I should be available in defamation

cases in exceptional circumstances.

 

2234

02:39:48,440 --> 02:39:51,360

This case is clearly exceptional

circumstances.

 

2235

02:39:51,360 --> 02:39:52,400

The longest case in history.

 

2236

02:39:52,400 --> 02:39:55,720

It's three times longer

than any previous libel case in the UK.

 

2237

02:39:55,720 --> 02:39:57,960

So that so that's on that point.

 

2238

02:39:57,960 --> 02:39:58,800

On the other point

 

2239

02:39:58,800 --> 02:40:01,800

about freedom of expression,

if it becomes possession, is ridiculous

 

2240

02:40:02,120 --> 02:40:07,240

that every single member of the public

wants to raise legitimate criticisms

 

2241

02:40:07,680 --> 02:40:11,640

about matters of public importance, has

to do all the primary research themselves

 

2242

02:40:11,640 --> 02:40:15,240

and be prepared to fight a court case

just for the right to say those points.

 

2243

02:40:15,560 --> 02:40:18,240

So I think the government

have got no case,

 

2244

02:40:18,240 --> 02:40:20,520

and if there was any justice,

we're bound to win.

 

2245

02:40:20,520 --> 02:40:22,080

But whether we do is not a question

 

2246

02:40:22,080 --> 02:40:25,960

for the government says why should

the taxpayers have to pay in their terms

 

2247

02:40:25,960 --> 02:40:28,960

up to 10 million a year to defend this

case?

 

2248

02:40:29,400 --> 02:40:32,080

We're not asking

we weren't asking the government.

 

2249

02:40:32,080 --> 02:40:34,000

We were asking for anyone to pay

£10 million.

 

2250

02:40:34,000 --> 02:40:35,040

That's what McDonnell spent,

 

2251

02:40:35,040 --> 02:40:38,840

obviously trying to get the best justice

for money to buy.

 

2252

02:40:39,160 --> 02:40:44,160

We're just asking that the rights

for campaigners and members of the public

 

2253

02:40:44,520 --> 02:40:48,960

to air criticisms on issues of public

importance are protected.

 

2254

02:40:49,400 --> 02:40:52,480

And the fact is that

the current state of the UK libel laws is

 

2255

02:40:52,840 --> 02:40:54,200

they just don't do that.

 

2256

02:40:54,200 --> 02:40:59,960

Yeah, I mean the laws are very x

extremely complicated and there's always,

 

2257

02:40:59,960 --> 02:41:03,240

you know, there's a threat of a long term

capital case.

 

2258

02:41:03,840 --> 02:41:07,200

You know, that's the money

that the witnesses to court to do.

 

2259

02:41:07,200 --> 02:41:11,560

Photocopying and administration

travel costs everything.

 

2260

02:41:11,560 --> 02:41:12,840

If you've got no money,

 

2261

02:41:12,840 --> 02:41:15,840

basically you are denied the right

to freedom of expression.

 

2262

02:41:15,880 --> 02:41:20,000

So there must be legal aid for people

if there's going to be protection

 

2263

02:41:20,000 --> 02:41:21,120

of the rights of the public in

 

2264

02:41:22,080 --> 02:41:23,040

the UK.

 

2265

02:41:23,040 --> 02:41:24,400

New cases to condemn the.

 

2266

02:41:24,400 --> 02:41:27,400

What are you expecting new trial and what

 

2267

02:41:28,200 --> 02:41:28,800

you want to go through?

 

2268

02:41:28,800 --> 02:41:30,960

Back as far as we're concerned, actually,

 

2269

02:41:30,960 --> 02:41:35,040

we've already won the trial

that that's first of all.

 

2270

02:41:35,040 --> 02:41:39,080

MacDonald brought the case

to suppress people, handing out leaflets,

 

2271

02:41:39,080 --> 02:41:43,040

criticizing them

as a result of the campaign leaflets.

 

2272

02:41:43,040 --> 02:41:45,480

So given that and thousands

when the case started

 

2273

02:41:45,480 --> 02:41:48,960

are now giving out in millions

all over the world and the public can see

 

2274

02:41:49,120 --> 02:41:52,120

that there's a crying need

for an alternative point of view.

 

2275

02:41:52,400 --> 02:41:57,480

So the billions spent by McDonald's

one sided propaganda

 

2276

02:41:57,480 --> 02:42:01,720

put out by the McDonald's corporation,

I think that's another point as well,

 

2277

02:42:01,720 --> 02:42:05,520

because the government referred to

that protection of

 

2278

02:42:05,840 --> 02:42:09,960

of speech should require that campaigners

should put the balance in their leaflet

 

2279

02:42:09,960 --> 02:42:12,320

and put the response of McDonald's,

for example.

 

2280

02:42:12,320 --> 02:42:14,600

Well, there's no requirement on McDonald's

to put the balance

 

2281

02:42:14,600 --> 02:42:17,600

in their adverts and say, well,

actually our food is healthy.

 

2282

02:42:17,720 --> 02:42:20,040

You really probably better not eating it.

 

2283

02:42:20,040 --> 02:42:25,680

So it is the campaigners are the balance

because the world is dominated by

 

2284

02:42:25,880 --> 02:42:29,480

multinational corporations and governments

acting in their own interests.

 

2285

02:42:29,480 --> 02:42:34,960

It's quite clear that the government took

the side of of McDonald's in this case

 

2286

02:42:35,240 --> 02:42:40,920

in that courtroom behind me

so that campaigners and members

 

2287

02:42:40,920 --> 02:42:43,920

of the public raising legitimate concerns

about how

 

2288

02:42:43,960 --> 02:42:47,760

about our society and about the future

of our lives, of our planet

 

2289

02:42:47,960 --> 02:42:52,920

are the balance against the injustice

that people are having to go through.

 

2290

02:42:54,600 --> 02:42:56,800

But you can do it,

 

2291

02:42:56,800 --> 02:43:00,800

but you've got no no real feel

for how it's going to turn out today.

 

2292

02:43:00,800 --> 02:43:04,080

And I thought for hearing

was just symbolic, really.

 

2293

02:43:04,200 --> 02:43:07,880

Most of the work has been done

behind the scenes on paper,

 

2294

02:43:08,520 --> 02:43:11,520

and they were really just kind of

going through the motions today.

 

2295

02:43:11,520 --> 02:43:14,240

But hopefully that the hundreds of pages

 

2296

02:43:14,240 --> 02:43:18,120

of legal argument

have been put in by us with the help of,

 

2297

02:43:18,120 --> 02:43:22,440

you know,

legal advisers is going to be convincing.

 

2298

02:43:22,440 --> 02:43:27,160

If it isn't,

then you know, we will continue

 

2299

02:43:27,360 --> 02:43:31,840

as people will argue, all over the world

and, you know, challenging questioning

 

2300

02:43:31,840 --> 02:43:35,720

and challenging and creating alternative

to those that are currently

 

2301

02:43:35,880 --> 02:43:38,800

creating environmental and social crises

all over the world.

 

2302

02:43:38,800 --> 02:43:41,800

The planet's in a mess

and based of the movement against

 

2303

02:43:41,800 --> 02:43:45,080

those in power is growing every minute.

 

2304

02:43:45,240 --> 02:43:47,840

And we will continue to campaign

until there's a just world

 

2305

02:43:49,640 --> 02:43:51,720

trying to figure out

 

2306

02:43:51,720 --> 02:43:54,720

how well help.

 

2307

02:43:55,240 --> 02:43:58,240

That's only one of the best.

 

2308

02:44:02,760 --> 02:44:05,040

Yeah, well, of course.

 

2309

02:44:05,040 --> 02:44:05,760

What do you think, Mark?

 

2310

02:44:05,760 --> 02:44:08,760

I don't know. It's a good hearing.

 

2311

02:44:09,120 --> 02:44:11,400

So listen,

 

2312

02:44:11,400 --> 02:44:13,720

listen, I know it wasn't.

 

2313

02:44:13,720 --> 02:44:15,840

Maybe you know, but you have no clue.

 

2314

02:44:15,840 --> 02:44:19,280

There is not any more, you know?

 

2315

02:44:19,680 --> 02:44:21,160

Okay.

 

2316

02:44:21,160 --> 02:44:22,920

We don't have direct incompetence

very much.

 

2317

02:44:22,920 --> 02:44:24,400

Everybody just does their own thing.

 

2318

02:44:24,400 --> 02:44:27,720

But honestly, I just want to, you know,

 

2319

02:44:29,920 --> 02:44:31,320

do it.

 

2320

02:44:31,320 --> 02:44:34,320

It's 98% of

 

2321

02:44:37,360 --> 02:44:41,480

just right.

 

2322

02:44:45,440 --> 02:44:48,160

So what we do now is we

 

2323

02:44:48,160 --> 02:44:50,800

just work

 

2324

02:44:50,800 --> 02:44:53,480

with a brilliant manager to complain.

 

2325

02:44:53,480 --> 02:44:56,480

If we don't them just carry on with it

anyway.

 

2326

02:44:57,120 --> 02:44:57,960

We don't. The laws.

 

2327

02:44:57,960 --> 02:45:00,880

And I mean you've got people out there

don't your complaint.

 

2328

02:45:00,880 --> 02:45:03,760

I know, I know, I know. We want to ask

 

2329

02:45:05,680 --> 02:45:08,600

now again

 

2330

02:45:08,600 --> 02:45:11,600

25 years it's like this

and he just concentrated

 

2331

02:45:11,800 --> 02:45:12,720

when you respond he said

 

2332

02:45:12,720 --> 02:45:16,760

that's all witnesses stories about what

he says about administration travel costs,

 

2333

02:45:16,760 --> 02:45:20,240

legal advice, 100 days of legal argument

on other cases.

 

2334

02:45:21,120 --> 02:45:21,800

And I see that.

 

2335

02:45:21,800 --> 02:45:25,360

But I'm told you must consult with

comprehensive is also kind of propping up

 

2336

02:45:25,800 --> 02:45:26,400

his life.

 

2337

02:45:26,400 --> 02:45:28,720

Is he going to get something?

 

2338

02:45:28,720 --> 02:45:31,720

Not it would be

 

2339

02:45:31,880 --> 02:45:33,760

for my good friend.

 

2340

02:45:33,760 --> 02:45:34,040

Yeah.

 

2341

02:45:34,040 --> 02:45:37,040

It's the diet and disease

and the scientific inquiry.

 

2342

02:45:37,720 --> 02:45:39,240

It does make the difference.

 

2343

02:45:39,240 --> 02:45:40,800

At that point.

 

2344

02:45:40,800 --> 02:45:42,960

You got isolated in the hair in a way.

 

2345

02:45:42,960 --> 02:45:44,680

Yeah. Yeah.

 

2346

02:45:44,680 --> 02:45:47,680

And where they could only see it

and the argument.

 

2347

02:45:47,720 --> 02:45:48,960

Yes it was. Yeah.

 

2348

02:45:48,960 --> 02:45:51,240

Especially when it's all in the public

domain already.

 

2349

02:45:51,240 --> 02:45:54,280

Even the top tips

like I was concerned about.

 

2350

02:45:54,280 --> 02:45:56,800

But I certainly say don't go to those

 

2351

02:46:00,840 --> 02:46:01,880

bloody dormitories.

 

2352

02:46:01,880 --> 02:46:03,920

And so, you know

 

2353

02:46:03,920 --> 02:46:07,720

when they recognize in their own lives,

I'm like, yeah, low, pale.

 

2354

02:46:08,440 --> 02:46:11,440

She knows where they're going bunkered

down.

 

2355

02:46:12,240 --> 02:46:13,840

A lot of times.

 

2356

02:46:13,840 --> 02:46:16,840

Yeah, it's good.

 

2357

02:46:17,240 --> 02:46:22,560

But yeah,

 

2358

02:46:22,760 --> 02:46:25,760

she's, she's

 

2359

02:46:27,120 --> 02:46:30,120

a little bit on Wednesday.

 

2360

02:46:35,720 --> 02:46:36,360

Yeah.

 

2361

02:46:36,360 --> 02:46:42,800

She mentioned so

 

2362

02:46:44,240 --> 02:46:46,120

and that's a frustrating thing

that you're going to go to court now

 

2363

02:46:46,120 --> 02:46:50,280

which response you you want to respond

that kind of substantial points

 

2364

02:46:50,280 --> 02:46:53,760

but at the same time it's a little bit

get the facts that they don't get it.

 

2365

02:46:53,840 --> 02:46:56,840

Yeah so

 

2366

02:46:57,560 --> 02:47:00,560

they just set up their system

 

2367

02:47:01,800 --> 02:47:03,840

exactly what's going on this stage.

 

2368

02:47:03,840 --> 02:47:07,800

There are some names because of

 

2369

02:47:08,520 --> 02:47:11,120

what was the 30,000.

 

2370

02:47:11,120 --> 02:47:13,640

This is 30,000 that in their submissions

 

2371

02:47:13,640 --> 02:47:16,640

and you know, 30,000, 40,000, you know,

 

2372

02:47:16,640 --> 02:47:20,520

he said by 1993

we have written submissions we've done.

 

2373

02:47:21,880 --> 02:47:22,080

Yeah.

 

2374

02:47:22,080 --> 02:47:23,880

Because

they put it in their original response

 

2375

02:47:23,880 --> 02:47:27,480

because I can't that

I mean it was very clear we can write

 

2376

02:47:28,920 --> 02:47:29,600

an appeal.

 

2377

02:47:29,600 --> 02:47:31,920

We did the first. Yeah.

 

2378

02:47:31,920 --> 02:47:34,600

And that was domestically in.

 

2379

02:47:34,600 --> 02:47:38,080

But Yeah but the thing about Dave

having an adjournment

 

2380

02:47:38,080 --> 02:47:42,080

to get advice about Haringey affidavit

and whether it's give evidence,

 

2381

02:47:42,600 --> 02:47:45,600

it's completely,

you know, that's completely false.

 

2382

02:47:45,600 --> 02:47:49,320

And it was basically what happened

 

2383

02:47:49,320 --> 02:47:53,560

was just you know Dave said

I don't think I need to give evidence.

 

2384

02:47:53,560 --> 02:47:55,000

I think there's a case against me.

 

2385

02:47:55,000 --> 02:47:59,160

And then the judge said, you know,

someone said something about just

 

2386

02:48:00,480 --> 02:48:02,400

considering it overnight,

and that was what happened.

 

2387

02:48:02,400 --> 02:48:05,400

It wasn't, yeah,

 

2388

02:48:20,840 --> 02:48:23,280

we're just standing in

the steps of the court.

 

2389

02:48:23,280 --> 02:48:23,640

Young

 

2390

02:48:28,880 --> 02:48:31,040

David Yes, I'm sure.

 

2391

02:48:31,040 --> 02:48:34,040

Yeah, that's

 

2392

02:48:34,560 --> 02:48:35,400

we weren't meant to get one.

 

2393

02:48:35,400 --> 02:48:37,680

The whole legal team

want you to tell me to get some, You know?