Film #8645 Interviews with Keir Starmer RUSHES
Transcript
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Well, I've been involved from the start.
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I was asked to give some advice
to the people who McDonald's was serving
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at the very beginning of proceedings,
and then it was clear
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that none of them would be able
to gain any legal aid.
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And I've tried to help out
since then on the basis that
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without any legal advice at all,
they wouldn't have been able to pursue
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the case.
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The position when let me start again for
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libel
is one of the most complex areas of law
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in England and is recognized to be
all libel actions
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have to start in the High Court
because they're so complex.
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It's impossible, in my view, for anybody
to conduct a case as complicated
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as libel
without some form of legal assistance.
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I was able to help Dave and Helen
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and in fact the other defendants
before they dropped out of the picture
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by providing some legal services to them
because there's no legal aid.
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All of that had to be done for free.
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Had they been able to get laid out,
have had proper representation throughout.
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I was asked to advise Dave and Helen
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when McDonald's
first decided to sue them for libel,
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and I immediately saw that McDonald's
had a very strong legal team
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and that it was a complicated case
raising all sorts of issues.
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Libel is complicated anyway.
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It's a very complex area of the law,
and for that reason,
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all libel cases are in the high court,
not the county court.
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And as soon as I saw the imbalance,
I decided that I would do
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what I could to help them
through this complicated area of law
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in the best way that I could,
because there's no legal
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right for them.
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The issues raised in this trial
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are complicated
and important in two different senses.
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Firstly, there's the actual details
of the case itself, the allegations
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that are raised and whether they're true
or not, or whether people paying prove,
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but perhaps more fundamentally,
freedom of speech.
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To what extent are people to be able
to say what they genuinely believe is true
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and to be able
to defend themselves in court?
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So far as the first issue is concerned,
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there's a good deal of material
in support of what Dave and Helen
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say in their case and to substantiate
the arguments
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they've been putting in court.
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The problem has been getting that evidence
with no resources
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to fly in, witnesses
take detailed statements, etcetera.
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It's been extremely difficult
so far as the broader issue is concerned.
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It's very much a David and Goliath.
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There's an extremely good legal team
acting for McDonald's
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at great expense, and Dave and Helen
have to act for themselves.
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With me as a sort of free back up
whenever I've been able to see them all,
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they've had the time to see me.
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Yeah.
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McDonald's have a top QC
who specializes in libel.
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They have a junior counsel
and they have a firm of solicitors,
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are well known for their libel work,
so they have a top team
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with full expertise
and the weight of that
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team came down on Dave
and Howe from, from the very start.
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They've been battling with that
because it's not just the days
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in court
of the actual hearing of the case.
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There's been all sorts of hearings
before the case even started,
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which really have ground down
Dave and had a good look around
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and anybody in their position,
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I think they've done brilliantly well.
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They've done what most people wouldn't
have been able to do, which is to stand up
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for the right
to say what they genuinely believe
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to be true
and to try to prove that in court.
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And it's very important
that they've done that.
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The imbalance in the libel laws
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between those that have money
and those that don't creates a real risk.
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That criticism will be stifled
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purely and simply
because those without money
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cannot afford to stand up
and try to prove what they say is true.
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Dave and Helen are extraordinary couple,
in my opinion.
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When I first met them,
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they really didn't know
very much about the law at all,
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and they certainly didn't know
very much about libel law.
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But they've worked away and grappled away
with mountains of evidence
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and really difficult legal concepts,
and between them
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they formed a very good team,
their cross-examinations extremely good.
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Some of the answers
they've got out of the experts in court
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talk barristers will be very pleased
to have elicited,
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but they've also now managed to grasp
a lot of that very difficult legal.
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I'll start that with again.
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Time to talk about that.
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That's great. Great.
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We can use that and we can go on. Right.
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So just carry on as if I was to go. Yes.
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They've also managed to grasp
very difficult legal concepts.
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And now if we have a discussion
about a point that's cropped up
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or we have to draft something,
they're very quick with the arguments
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and they're able to draft stuff
on their own and argue it on their own.
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And I think they'll make very good lawyers
when they've finished.
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I will encourage them to do that.
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ON Well,
Richard Rampton has had a much easier
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job than Dave and Helen for two reasons.
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One is that he's obviously extremely
well qualified as a libel barrister.
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He's a QC.
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His expertise has been recognized
and therefore a lot of the legal points
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that have arisen he will have dealt
with before in his career.
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But secondly,
he has the natural advantage.
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The plaintiff in the libel action
can simply say, You've slandered me,
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you've libeled me, and then sit back
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and wait for the defendant to try
and prove what they've said is true.
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So his job has been relatively easy.
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He simply says, Well,
I think this is libelous.
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Doesn't Helen then have to
not only get on top of the same legal
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points as him, but put forward
the evidence to support their case?
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So there's an imbalance
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which is very much in his favor
rather than Dave and Helen's.
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I would say that it's been much,
much more difficult than has,
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I think, looking at the transcripts
and seeing what
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I've seen of the proceedings
and listening to Dave and Helen, that Mr.
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is done
as well as could have been expected.
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However, as I say, he has an easier job
than Dave and Helen,
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and it may be that he's in a situation
where he can't genuinely win.
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In other words, however
well he does in court, however many
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legal victories or points
he scored, nobody outside
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the court room is ever going to consider
that MacDonald's have won this case.
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He can't further his career
through this case because McDonald's,
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the outside public, are going to say
always, well,
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there was such an imbalance that can
I start again?
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Because I do think that's
quite a good point about
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the. Mr.
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Robinson has obviously
had a lot of experience of libel cases
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and has conducted this case in the way
I'm sure you would have conducted
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any other case.
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And he's won a number of legal victories
along the way.
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Having said that,
in terms of the evidence that's come out,
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I think David had them have done
far better than him.
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They've gained more than he has
in cross-examination.
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And in many ways
he's a barrister with a case
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which he can't win
even if the judgment goes in his favor.
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Nobody outside
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the courtroom is seriously going
to consider MacDonald's to be the victors
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because of the huge imbalance
between the resources of one party
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and the other, and the inability of Dave
and Helen to get the witnesses.
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They wanted that
on the day they needed them.
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This judge
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has only recently been appointed, and
I think this was one of his first cases.
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I think he must have been persuaded
that it was a six week
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case and it's now
turned out to be two years.
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It seems that he takes his lead from Mr.
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Rampton, who after all, is a leading
barrister on libel when legal issues
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arise.
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And I know that's caused difficulty
for Dave and Helen
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because they obviously see Mr.
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Upton's representing one side rather
whilst they're on the other side.
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So that has caused some difficulties
throughout the case.
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One of the examples
I think of how Dave, how
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well Dave and Helen
have done in defending themselves
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is that they forced MacDonald's legal team
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to have a strategic rethink
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two thirds of the way through the case
and Mr.
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Rampton, on behalf of McDonald's,
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decided to fundamentally change the way
in which he put the case
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and extend it by amending his statement
of claim two thirds of the way through
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that is was a significant
victory for Dave and Helen.
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The change that MacDonald's legal team
decided on two thirds of the way
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through the case was to extend the claim
against Dave and Helen massively,
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instead of now saying that they handed out
the leaflet on one or two occasions,
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they're trying to make them liable
for the entire production of the leaflet
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anywhere in the country
over a three or four year period,
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even when not handed out or distributed
directly by themselves.
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That's completely messy.
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Where can I run that again?
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Because it's so it's difficult
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enough for people to understand.
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She's actually
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one of the most remarkable things
about this case,
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and it tells us a lot about the way
Dave and Helen of managed to conduct it.
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Is that on one issue, nutrition,
the cross-examination
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by Dave and Helen of MacDonald's
witnesses was so devastating that Mr.
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Rampton had to change the case
for MacDonald and apply
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halfway through the case to change the way
he put his argument on nutrition
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and to amend his pleadings.
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And it's extremely unusual.
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And that's a tribute to the way
in which, as I say, Dave and Helen have
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conducted the case.
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One of the critical points in the case
arose
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after the cross-examination of MacDonald's
nutrition experts when Mr..
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To change the case
fundamentally on behalf of MacDonald
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because they're witnesses
have been so shaken in
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cross-examination
and expanded his case massively
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because of the cross-examination
and now being repetitive.
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Maybe
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one extraordinary feature
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of the case was when Mr.
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Rampton applied to change his case
after the cross-examined version
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of MacDonald's witnesses on nutrition.
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The cross-examination was devastating
so far as McDonald's were concerned,
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and many top lawyers
would have been very proud
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to have got the answers
that Dave and Helen managed to get out
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of MacDonald's experts,
and as a result, Mr.
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Rampton had to change the move.
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The goalposts of his case,
instead of saying
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the particular phrase, meant one thing.
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He now argues that it means
something completely different.
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One striking part of this case
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has been the extent to which McDonald's
have been prepared to infiltrate
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the group London Greenpeace
to find out information.
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And the full picture has only emerged
as the case has gone on.
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And it's quite clear
that McDonald's put spies
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within the group who were collating
all sorts of information.
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It emerged also that those people
were playing their full part in the group
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and were doing everything
that it's alleged
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Dave and Helen were doing to promote
the leaflet in question,
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including handing it out
and putting it in envelopes.
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And at that point it became obvious
that they were fully participating
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and that therefore
they ought to play their part
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in paying any damages,
if there are any, to McDonald's.
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So it raised a double issue.
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One was if McDonald's
were really generating this,
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weren't
they the true cause of the distribution?
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And secondly,
didn't they ought to pay for any damage
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they caused by their own actions
through their own spies?
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And so they were joined
in the case as defendants?
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Was that too long and willfully
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the possible inclusion
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of the agents of McDonald's in the case
raises a very interesting legal question,
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because in a nutshell, McDonald's
argument against Dave and Helen is that by
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participating and being members of London
Greenpeace, you have distributed leaflet,
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but it now emerges that the agents
attended more meetings, participated
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more fully and distributed the leaflet
more freely than Dave and Helen ever did.
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And on that basis,
the argument in law must run
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that McDonald's have not only consented
to the distribution, but ought to be
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liable for any damages that they say
they've caused their reputation.
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The camp, the counterclaim
was extremely important for two reasons.
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Firstly, it puts some emphasis on the need
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for McDonald's to not was bumped up to
at some stage, wasn't it.
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Hello.
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The camp.
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The counterclaim
is extremely important to this case
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because it changes the emphasis.
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It demands traits that Dave
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and Helen are not making things up
and they're not lying.
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And that's what
lies at the heart of the counterclaim.
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It demonstrates that they are genuinely
and honestly trying
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to put across the truth
as they understand it to be in court.
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00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,760
And there's a thousand miles between that
and someone who who simply lying.
237
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,240
And that's
why it's so important for the case.
238
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,640
Yeah,
239
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:20,760
I mean, there's a danger
in that obviously,
240
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,080
and that's that they lose
the counterclaims as well.
241
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:24,200
Yeah,
242
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,000
the counterclaim is very important
in the sense that until Lewis
243
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,400
a counterclaim, McDonald's
were able to sit back and say to Dave
244
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,240
and how would you prove it? You prove it.
245
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,960
And essentially to cast them in the role
246
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,960
of being the party
that was somehow in the wrong.
247
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,240
Once there's a counterclaim,
there was another focus to the case,
248
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,480
and that was
how will McDonald's conducting this case?
249
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,640
And what were their business practices
and should they really have been going
250
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,960
as far as they did in printing leaflets,
making all sorts of allegations
251
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,440
about the way Dave and Helen
were were trying to prepare the defense?
252
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,320
And so suddenly the scrutiny was on them
and they had to answer
253
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:06,440
for what they'd done.
254
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:11,200
So it very much turned the tables,
the counterclaims extremely important
255
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:17,520
because it changed the focus of the case
until the counterclaim came along.
256
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,000
McDonald's were able to sit back and cast
Dave and Helen
257
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,760
in the in the role of
the people in the wrong, the people in
258
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,760
the dock who had to defend themselves
and show that they were telling the truth.
259
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,520
Once the counterclaim came along,
McDonald's had to suddenly explain
260
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,280
why it was they were saying
that the leaflet was lies.
261
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,200
In other words, they had to explain
their business practices
262
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,880
were not as described in the leaflet
and produce evidence to that effect.
263
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,040
Now, in some areas,
for example, nutrition
264
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,040
that had an amazing effect on the case
265
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,080
and pushed McDonald's very much onto
the back foot in my opinion.
266
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,080
In a sense what the counterclaim did
was to focus attention
267
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,680
on MacDonald's business practices and
268
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,640
I know that's not the way
269
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,160
in a sense, what the counterclaim did
270
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,240
was to force McDonald's to be accountable
for their business practices.
271
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,120
And that has been a major feature
of the case and the coverage of the case
272
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:34,480
has been along those lines, and that has
obviously been extremely unhelpful.
273
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,240
Not all,
274
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,080
but the most important conclusion
that can be drawn about the counterclaim
275
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,800
is that McDonald's are now on
276
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,800
trial for their business practices
277
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,840
and the focus is less on Dave
and Howlett and more on them.
278
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,360
And I think that's how the public perceive
the issues.
279
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:57,240
It's really
whether McDonald's can now show
280
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,520
that these allegations
in the leaflet are unfounded.
281
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:01,600
And if they can't,
282
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,520
they run a very serious risk
in the public's eye, in my opinion.
283
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,760
The inside view
on the trial from the legal profession
284
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,080
is that McDonald's
285
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,440
could never justify their position
286
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,800
in law
because it's such a one sided battle.
287
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,280
The I'll run that again, if I may.
288
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,160
The inside view
on the trial of the legal profession
289
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,680
is that this case
shows the absurdity of the libel laws
290
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,760
and that after this case,
things are going to have to change.
291
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,840
You cannot have the longest case
in civil history
292
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,040
and in all likelihood, criminal history,
293
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,080
where one side has a top legal team
294
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,160
and the others have no resources
whatsoever.
295
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:53,280
So whatever the result, this case
296
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,280
will change the future of libel law.
297
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,160
One of the problems with the law
as it is now, i.e.
298
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,240
that there's no legal aid for defendants
299
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,240
and you have to have a lot of money
to hire libel lawyers,
300
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,080
is that there's a tendency
on the part of those
301
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:15,640
that have a lot of money to suppress
criticism from those that don't, because
302
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,800
it's not a question of whether you're
telling the truth or not that matters.
303
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,200
It's whether you have the courage
304
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,200
or the money
to defend what you say in court.
305
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,960
And in my experience, many,
many people who can back up
306
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,080
what they're saying nevertheless don't
defend themselves in libel proceedings
307
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,280
because they fear the costs so much.
308
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,160
Yes, what I could say is I think this case
309
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,600
would have cost over £1,000,000
310
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,080
in fees and an ordinary case would run.
311
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,040
It would be at least 50,000,
probably more.
312
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,840
One of the obvious problems with a system
313
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,920
where there's no legal aid
for people in libel proceedings
314
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,800
is that there's a tendency
on the part of those that have money
315
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,240
to use libel as a means for suppressing
316
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,840
information and opinions
that they don't approve of
317
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:41,040
because the reality is not
that if you genuinely think
318
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,360
something to be true, you can go along,
have your day in court and say so.
319
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,640
The reality is that many, many people
who are making good points,
320
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,880
who are genuinely expressing
their opinion, will be so fearful
321
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,960
of the costs in libel proceedings
that they will settle out of court,
322
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,240
even though they may think they would win
because they're risking huge costs.
323
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,080
The costs of an ordinary libel action
will usually exceed £50,000.
324
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,200
And in the case of Dave and Helen,
the costs on both sides
325
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,440
would have been over £1,000,000.
326
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:19,680
The problem
327
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,560
with the law is it now
is for libel, is that it's
328
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,720
not a battle for the truth in court,
it's a battle of the purse.
329
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,040
If you have the money,
330
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,960
you can hire a good legal team
and you can hope for victory.
331
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,280
If you have no money, you can't hire
a legal team and you run huge risks
332
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:43,240
because if you lose, you could pay
the costs of the person that's suing you.
333
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,120
Now, that is a huge incentive
by those that can afford to pay lawyers
334
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,080
to suppress information and opinions
of those that they know can't.
335
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,360
And many people will withdraw from cases
336
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,360
or settle cases
because they fear the costs.
337
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,320
And the costs of most libel cases
338
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,200
would be in excess of £50,000
339
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,360
and had Dave and Helen
instructed lawyers on their behalf,
340
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,640
the costs would have
clearly exceeded £1,000,000.
341
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,560
I think the idea that multinationals
can sue for libel
342
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:22,080
fundamentally violates
the rights of people to express opinion
343
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,440
because a multinational is not like you
or I is not a person
344
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,680
that has a reputation in the sense
that people will think greater
345
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,680
or lesser of them is a business entity
346
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:39,000
and they make money and there's no
can I start this one again?
347
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,000
Because it's actually a really important
point and I want to make.
348
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:47,360
I said that the absurdity is
349
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,880
that it's assumed
that reputation is lowered when there's
350
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,480
been nothing to suggest that they've lost
the sale of even one hamburger.
351
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:56,600
And that's the important thing.
352
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,600
That's
why multinationals did not be able to sue.
353
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,920
So can I just run that again?
354
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:07,920
The absurdity of multinationals
being able to sue for libel
355
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:13,080
is that they don't have to prove
their reputation is lowered.
356
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,400
One can understand how an individual
might
357
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,080
be viewed differently by society
if certain things are said about them.
358
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,560
But a multinational
has only a trading capacity,
359
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,480
and yet in this case,
McDonald's can sue for what they say
360
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,800
is the lowering their reputation
without having to prove or show
361
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,640
that they've lost the sale
of a single hamburger
362
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,720
as a result of the leaflet
being distributed.
363
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,800
And in my view, that is an unwarranted
364
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,800
intrusion onto freedom of expression.
365
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:44,880
And I just think
366
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,080
it's very
367
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,440
interesting to see that the courts
have now recognized
368
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,640
that government departments
369
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,640
and local authorities can't sue for libel
370
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,880
on the basis
that it would stifle free speech.
371
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,960
In my view, the same ought to apply
for multinationals.
372
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,040
It's a competitive world
373
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,040
out there and they can survive or fall.
374
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,960
No lawsuits, crime.
375
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,480
I'll just make the short point.
376
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,480
Charlotte also,
377
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,200
it's interesting to see that
378
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,520
this case comes at a very time
379
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,560
Let me start letting in.
380
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,880
One very interesting aspect of this case
381
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,560
is that whilst McDonald's and Dave
and Helen have been arguing in court,
382
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,160
the courts have decided
in a different case
383
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,640
that local authorities
shouldn't be able to sue for libel.
384
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,720
And the reasoning of the court
is that a body such as a local authority
385
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,600
doesn't have the kind of reputation
that needs protecting
386
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,720
and that to bring libel proceedings
on behalf of a body
387
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,640
like that would stifle free speech.
388
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,400
And that that's something that
free speech, in other words, outweighs
389
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,680
that right to their reputation.
390
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,200
That's crap as well. So that was
391
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,440
the argument
392
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,920
that local authorities
don't need to protect their reputation
393
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,440
and the free speech of the public
is far more important,
394
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,360
applies equally to multinationals
and the free speech of members
395
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,360
of the public to say what they think
about the multinationals,
396
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,880
if far outweighs the right
that they have to sue for defamation.
397
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,840
In my view, the law should be changed
to prohibit multinationals
398
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,840
from bringing proceedings such as these.
399
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,080
All right.
400
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,960
Yes, I'll just say I can't
I can't envisage any situation in which
401
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,160
a multinational would not be able
to defend itself with its own resources
402
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,160
without recourse to the courts.
403
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,720
The reasoning of the court
that it's important to be able
404
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:05,080
to criticize local authorities
applies equally to multinationals.
405
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,480
They wield great power
throughout the world.
406
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,160
McDonald's is well-known
in many, many countries,
407
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,840
and it's important
that the public are able to criticize
408
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,560
McDonald's or any other multinational
and to do so freely.
409
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,400
And I can't see that
any multinational genuinely
410
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,680
needs to use the courts as a forum
for getting its arguments across.
411
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,040
I know what it means.
412
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:44,280
One insight that anyone can take from
413
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,040
this case is how unfair
the legal system can be in this country.
414
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,440
We pride ourselves
on having a legal system
415
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:53,640
which is the best in the world,
416
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,360
and we pride ourselves on the fact
that we've all got free speech.
417
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,080
But in reality, of course,
that simply isn't the situation.
418
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,960
If you can't put up the money
to run a case such as this,
419
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,360
then you really can't say what you like
420
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,120
and it's the battle of those
that can afford
421
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,200
to run libel proceedings
against those that can't,
422
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,160
not the battle of truth
that this case throws up.
423
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:21,600
That's something I used before.
424
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,600
But you probably perfect.
425
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,520
I think very little
like can be given to the verdict.
426
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,240
It really isn't
427
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:36,480
to achieve very much to win this point
or that in a case
428
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:41,160
when everybody knows other witnesses
could have been called in.
429
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,840
If you sit back
430
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,560
and think about some of the witnesses
that could have come on behalf
431
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,480
of Dave and Helen, but didn't
because nobody could pay their airfare,
432
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,840
the verdict pales into insignificance.
433
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,640
It's meaningless
if both sides had had all the witnesses
434
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,720
they wanted, then
a true verdict might have been possible.
435
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,160
But with the best will in the world,
436
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,480
the judge can only give a verdict
according to the evidence.
437
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,840
And the evidence costs money.
438
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,160
And we all know the fact
that the money wasn't there
439
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,520
for Dave and Helen
to call witnesses. They wanted.
440
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,120
There's clearly a lot of
441
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,120
work to do
in the final stages of the case.
442
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,000
There's been over two years
worth of evidence,
443
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160
and that's all been carefully
recorded in transcripts.
444
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,280
That all has to be collated
and put in a legal framework.
445
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,440
That's a colossal task.
446
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,120
And we'll be trying to bring together
a team of volunteer lawyers
447
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,600
to sift through the evidence and help
448
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,600
with the legal arguments
449
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,320
so that.
450
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,320
Right, you want me to run million?
451
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,200
The final stages of the case
are obviously extremely important
452
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,800
because after two years of evidence,
what has to happen now is the distillation
453
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,800
of all the facts into a legal framework,
454
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,800
which is itself extremely complicated.
455
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,560
There are only ten or so weeks
for that process to take place,
456
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,800
and it's been necessary
to try and bring together as many people
457
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,920
as possible to work on the arguments,
458
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,840
to pull lawyers in on a voluntary basis
and ask them for their time
459
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,080
and resources to help with this task.
460
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,320
But it is extremely important because it's
obviously the way in which Dave
461
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,240
and Helen are going to put their case
in their final submissions to the court.
462
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:40,360
I don't know.
463
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:41,520
It's a nice I don't know.
464
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,840
I don't know. I don't know.
465
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,440
I mean, what tends to happen
is everybody said, yes, yes, I'll help.
466
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,200
And then of course,
when it comes to the day
467
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,200
when they needed that,
they're never that.
468
00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:54,720
Let me turn it around.
469
00:34:54,720 --> 00:34:59,120
It's a feature of this case
that it's only been possible
470
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,040
to bring together
a team of legal at the very end.
471
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:09,120
Before the case had so much publicity,
there were some very lonely days
472
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,040
when the meetings were literally me,
Dave and Helen
473
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,160
for months and months and months.
474
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,880
It's very nice now to see that
their battle in court has really
475
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:26,280
the imagination, not only of the public,
but of lawyers and has their consciences.
476
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,680
And they've come along now to help
with the preparations for the final stage.
477
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,280
So what have you gained personally from
478
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,760
having was first sight of that
479
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,200
one of the most interesting
aspects of this case,
480
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,360
as far as I'm concerned, has been to watch
481
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,240
and observe two people with courage
482
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,520
fighting a case and to see that even
with limited resources,
483
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,080
even I'm able to bring all the evidence
you want to to court.
484
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,520
You can win significant victories
485
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,560
through a belief in what you're saying,
a belief in free speech,
486
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,360
and the courage
to continually put your your case forward.
487
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,760
And I've learned a lot through watching
Dave and Helen do that.
488
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,160
It's very difficult to predict
489
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,800
what will happen when this case ends.
490
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,080
I think it's unlikely
491
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,080
that the verdict will see
the end of the leaflet
492
00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:34,400
and because people genuinely believe
in free speech
493
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,160
and feel that this case has been
an attempt to suppress free speech,
494
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,640
the could
well be mass defiance of the courts
495
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,440
and the mass distribution of the leaflet
496
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,520
is very difficult to see
what McDonald's could do in that situation
497
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,680
and very difficult to see what the courts
could do faced with that situation.
498
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,480
So it may be in the end
that free speech will will win.
499
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,680
Once the closing speeches are finished.
500
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,800
The judge then has a very difficult task
because he has to look at the submissions
501
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,400
that have been made to him
and consider the evidence and try to come
502
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,560
to the right decision on all of the points
that have been raised.
503
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,920
He's bound to find on some points
from McDonald's
504
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,400
and in my view he will find for Dave
and Helen on other points.
505
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:31,920
And when he's done
506
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,560
that, he's then got to decide
if he's going to award any damages.
507
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,080
And if he does, how large
an amount of damage is he awards.
508
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,000
Now, clearly, if he awards a huge amount
against Dave and Helen,
509
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,400
it will bankrupt them and they won't
have any prospect of paying.
510
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:52,000
If, on the
511
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,560
other hand, he orders a small amount,
McDonald's will feel
512
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,720
that they're name hasn't been vindicated
and that it was all a pointless exercise.
513
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,720
So he has a very difficult
task of getting the damages right
514
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,080
as well as the verdict right.
515
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,200
Well, I do think there's one point worth
making, and it's this that
516
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,520
the stakes are now so high for McDonald's
517
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,880
that if they lose on any one issue,
518
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,960
it's going to be devastating for them
because given their resources,
519
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,280
given the arguments they've mounted, they
they think they ought to win
520
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,160
and therefore they don't,
then it really is devastating.
521
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:30,040
I mean, I think that's quite good
522
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,720
because then if there is a point
at which on which they lose,
523
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:35,720
I mean, my my prediction is McDonald's
will win probably about three quarters,
524
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,760
but there will be some significant points
on which Dave and Hallam with
525
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,360
and that that can be turned
into a real victory for Dave
526
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,360
and Helen on the basis that McDonald's
ought to have won everything
527
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:46,600
because I just shoot.
528
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:49,800
The stakes in this
529
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,800
case now
are extremely high for McDonald's.
530
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,200
They've had the resources,
they've had the legal team
531
00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:01,000
and they've had the strategy,
which they think will enable them to win.
532
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,720
If they now lose on any one point,
it will be devastating.
533
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:10,600
It will demonstrate that their arguments
were not good arguments,
534
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,800
and it will demonstrate that Dave
and Helen were right.
535
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,360
And what was put in the leaflet was right
and that they were trying
536
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:23,440
to stop the publication of something
which was true
537
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,440
and therefore ought
to have been published.
538
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,080
So I'll just shoot.
539
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,080
One of the reasons
that I wanted to be involved
540
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,120
in this case
and to give it as much time as I could
541
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,960
is because it raises
the fundamental question of whether
542
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,200
people are really free
to say what they genuinely believe.
543
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,840
And I think the imbalance in court
at the moment means that they can't.
544
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,720
Now, Dave and Helen wanted
freedom of expression,
545
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:26,880
and that's what they're fighting for.
546
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,680
But not only that, the issues around which
they're fighting extremely important.
547
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,280
The nutrition issue is an example
548
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,360
where there's a great deal of evidence
549
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,520
to support what they're saying,
and that evidence ought to be heard.
550
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,920
And I wanted to do my part
to make sure the argument was put
551
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,160
as best it could be
with the limited resources that they had.
552
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,920
Okay,
553
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,360
We're going to hear this history.
554
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,360
One word,
555
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:22,240
just as
556
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,400
yeah, I'm find
557
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:52,880
it's got 10 minutes.
558
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,880
So we go will
559
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,280
we get through to one man?
560
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,360
But number seven, page three, four,
561
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:05,320
three.
562
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,320
Feel it is my
563
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,080
not what I wanted was not a concept
564
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,840
just for enabling our witnesses
a better word.
565
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,200
You just didn't know
it. It's not unlikely.
566
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,000
You witnesses? Yeah. Okay.
567
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,520
That's just what he's saying. Statements.
568
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,520
Okay, so fine with know.
569
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,440
I want to go.
570
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,640
Yeah, I'm gonna do something slow.
571
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:05,320
Well, you got to finish this off.
572
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:05,640
Courts.
573
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,520
They've had overindulgence.
We've had no lawyer.
574
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,080
yeah? Yeah. Don't do that. Don't do that.
575
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,960
Plosives come back ferocious.
576
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,960
I can do that.
577
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:19,320
Okay.
578
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,320
Anything else? I don't know that.
579
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:23,320
We've got time to do it now.
580
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,320
Well, what have we got on the stuff?
581
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,320
Evidence is standard.
582
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,120
We've got.
583
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,480
I think we've got something on
which is going to interest somewhere.
584
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:38,720
Somebody in there. Yeah.
585
00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:41,760
I've various tendencies so see
586
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,120
offenders
and yeah, I've done that, I've noted that.
587
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,120
Anyway
588
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:52,720
publication now you do not have
589
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,720
I didn't
I wanted to discuss with you on that
590
00:44:56,720 --> 00:45:00,480
but did the
what do you want to come back later.
591
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,480
Have you got a document
but a working document.
592
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,160
I've got it on disk here.
593
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,080
Yeah. Useful. Not just for me.
594
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,040
Just take on to mine
so I can have a look at it.
595
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,040
yeah, yeah,
596
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:14,760
yeah.
597
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,560
So? So.
598
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:17,520
Which was fun.
599
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:18,400
So. Song There was it?
600
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,400
Yeah.
601
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:41,720
Yeah.
602
00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:44,720
Hi, Audrey.
603
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:45,400
I think time.
604
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,600
Yeah. All right, that's great. So.
605
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,320
But. But.
606
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,400
Okay,
607
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:54,920
I'll play that.
608
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,880
We work through this later on. So.
609
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,880
Yeah, just a quick note is time
610
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,960
coverage from the Times Friday
and it goes publication
611
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,960
is that one you okay?
612
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,280
Milligan?
613
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,280
Yeah, I got
614
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:14,440
this.
615
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,360
It's not on the computer.
616
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,400
Is this taken from the stuff up here?
617
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,720
Some of it is some of the things
where some of that stuff
618
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:23,720
I've written myself,
but there's that right member on
619
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,720
show me to take it onto my desk
620
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:27,600
and then have a look at it
and we can discuss it on the phone.
621
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:28,480
Yeah, Yeah.
622
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,480
If you have an
623
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,880
there's no point in me
looking to leave finished in you're
624
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,320
happy it when it What are you going to do
get together tonight on.
625
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,160
I don't know if you know so
626
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,880
supposed to that
627
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,080
when you get to publication tomorrow
628
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,200
you know probably
629
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:36,400
yeah yeah
630
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,640
because
631
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:47,000
for some reason
632
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,640
I haven't got a copy of
I've got my own here.
633
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:54,360
I'm grateful for Timothy Atkins
and barrister for advice and introduction.
634
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:59,120
This chapter discussed in
the closed world.
635
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:01,440
We haven't got a copy.
636
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:01,920
You've got me.
637
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,560
For some reason,
there's someone's nicked house. really?
638
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,280
Yeah. I'll see if I can find it.
639
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,200
Have you got my.
640
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:10,120
You've got your Duncan.
641
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:16,880
You invited him to come here.
642
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:18,720
Okay, Well, should we.
643
00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:21,160
Do you want to sort of
go through it on the phone? That's right.
644
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:21,760
Yeah.
645
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,960
So if I just ask you about specific,
I mean, maybe if you read it
646
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,640
and if there's something
that you think's wrong with it,
647
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,760
then make a note of it,
and then I'll just.
648
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,200
Where are you going?
To being home. Yeah, right. Okay.
649
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:34,000
Right.
650
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,320
What about the rest of this?
651
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,240
So publication is with
652
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:40,160
and without really consent.
653
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:41,600
You did it with consent as well.
654
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,480
Pretty good, right?
655
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:44,480
There's a note on those.
656
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,960
There's not a lot of
there's not a lot to say. Well,
657
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,880
why don't they say copies of everything
everyone else has done on consent?
658
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,880
What have we got to say over
and above what we said on the
659
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,480
on the application to join third parties
660
00:48:58,040 --> 00:48:58,560
or not law?
661
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,880
I mean, maybe just
get the transcript of that then we do.
662
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:05,280
Have you got that?
663
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,520
Yeah. Yeah.
664
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:08,800
Why don't you just use them.
665
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:09,840
Yeah. Yeah. It's up to him.
666
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,840
And so she's, she's doing that. So
667
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,200
I actually said
668
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,360
it's quite a lot
the other day when, when I was doing
669
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,320
the, doing the planning speeches.
670
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:25,680
Right.
671
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:26,960
So what does that mean.
672
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,960
I mean meaning they're all
673
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:37,280
meaningless.
674
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,920
The only meaning he's found so far
is the nutrition one isn't it.
675
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,840
Yeah,
but he's given all kinds of indications.
676
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,320
She doesn't mean like this thing
about some.
677
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,320
I'm not asking about,
you know, interpreting everything.
678
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,200
The fact it must relate to McDonald's.
Right.
679
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,280
Rather than just then part of an industry.
680
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,560
She's really.
681
00:49:58,800 --> 00:49:58,960
Yeah.
682
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,960
I mean,
683
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:02,960
absurd.
684
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,960
And so spell said I can't be right
685
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,320
binding domain so what we're saying
686
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:11,720
I mean we just have to leave this alight
687
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:14,720
so maybe even that Time now for me,
688
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:16,480
I'll try.
But what are you going to do now?
689
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,080
I'm trying to expand on me.
690
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:19,360
I've got lots of other things,
691
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,280
so I've got to add all these appendices
and rewrite them and stuff
692
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:24,080
because some of them have
693
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,080
been quite badly written.
694
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:29,960
But unemployment is going to drop.
695
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,960
It is not particularly brilliant
because it's not done overall.
696
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,120
No, but the volume is not that of he's
697
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,120
meant to be getting me stuff on breaks,
but I'll rewrite stuff the stuff in it.
698
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:48,680
So she might as well.
699
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,920
We need to expand that, expand
700
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,280
the admissibility of evidence.
701
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:05,400
That's Jason stuff.
702
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,680
He just says it's all in just fine.
703
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,280
Everyone in that grade
that really now now So
704
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,680
you need to do it unless
705
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,680
you can do it so dealt with massive win
706
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,760
over the right way
707
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,960
in terms of the evidence
we've we've kind of dealt with it
708
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,960
quite a lot
709
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,520
in the first time On damage on damages.
710
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,520
You said you've got ten points list of No,
I haven't done it yet.
711
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,120
So you've got that to put it like
712
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:43,200
this.
713
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,600
There's just so many different grounds.
714
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,160
That's
something that maybe you can think of.
715
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,480
Any grounds
we can come back to that maybe tomorrow.
716
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:52,960
You know,
717
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,560
someone just points
718
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,560
to, Why didn't you come in on the way back
tomorrow?
719
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,120
You know,
720
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,560
you've got a conference
from been called the High Court
721
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,560
information about same time, right. So
722
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:12,520
but ring first.
723
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,520
Just take some.
724
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:16,880
Okay.
725
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,960
Well, look, do you want to tell you
of ten points on damages
726
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,560
and then just read them
over on the phone to me?
727
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,200
Yeah, yeah,
728
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:25,280
yeah.
729
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,280
First check with care.
730
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,480
And if I call you about publication.
731
00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:32,760
Yeah. If you.
732
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,360
If you have a ring of it. Yeah. Sorry.
Read of it.
733
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,360
Yeah. But
734
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:40,120
okay.
735
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,320
Counter-claim if you've got something
on the counterclaim way,
736
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:45,920
what's happening with that.
737
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,560
And this comes claim submissions.
738
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,800
What happens
739
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,920
was is that like some Jonathan
Crystal did.
740
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,800
Yeah.
741
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:06,360
Yeah.
742
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,240
I gave one to Kieran.
743
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:10,480
Well anything in their work.
744
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,760
I mean we've all said we've
sent a lot of stuff over there anyway so
745
00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:18,560
okay.
746
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,560
Okay.
747
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:25,840
Okay.
748
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,440
What since I call you and
749
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,440
I mean I'm going to be, I'm
750
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,240
Yeah.
751
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:42,400
Do you want to fax me
those ten damages things so by seven.
752
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:43,080
Right.
753
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:43,600
Yeah.
754
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,720
That's what I'll I'll look on that next.
755
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:48,920
And I didn't do damages for
you had you to call
756
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,960
for until about six
757
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,960
and then I got, I have a quick
read through of what I want this morning.
758
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:58,400
You can call me on the direct
line tonight if you want a
759
00:53:59,720 --> 00:54:02,040
special treat for one month.
760
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:03,760
Yeah.
761
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,120
I think there's two things.
762
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,680
All of us have long term solutions.
763
00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:11,720
I think I need just from.
764
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:19,280
Is it worth going and
765
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,120
have you got me or I look this morning,
it's not until this morning.
766
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:26,040
Do you want to take that
then focus committee?
767
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:27,520
Yeah. I'm not sure.
768
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,560
There's there is a lot to think about.
769
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,000
You don't have time to read all the stuff,
of course,
770
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,080
but the force from A to B
won't happen at Chambers library.
771
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,080
But some
772
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:41,520
this saw guys.
773
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:42,600
Some choice I might take. Yeah.
774
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,280
Do you want to take it? Yeah, I've got.
So what's all this stuff?
775
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,880
Yeah, that's all yours
is. This is one photocopy.
776
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,880
So. Yeah.
So I run it through the shed now.
777
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:52,880
Yeah. In fact, if you can do
778
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,720
full copies, that would be better
779
00:54:59,720 --> 00:55:02,040
to you know,
780
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,240
for coming up
781
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:05,200
on. Okay.
782
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,760
Just get
783
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:09,160
groups
784
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:15,440
that come from the.
785
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:23,240
I never know that Atkinson is working on
786
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:27,480
this.
787
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,480
I know it's.
788
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:39,040
You said you'd look for anything
789
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,200
about cross law from experts
and so we should discuss it.
790
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:43,720
See what you want to take that?
791
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:45,240
Well, not really, no.
792
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:47,800
I thought in case you don't,
you find something in it.
793
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,280
There's some useful stuff
and I'll give it off.
794
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:52,920
Let's compare the five it or.
795
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,040
Yeah,
you can photocopy now if you want. Yeah.
796
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:56,760
Yeah.
Well shall we go to the main plot. Yeah.
797
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,760
Because I've got some stuff on experts but
798
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,000
some of the good stuff.
799
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,000
All right.
800
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,880
You here's to list all cases about a
801
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,880
representative about.
802
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,640
Yeah, the unincorporated decisions.
803
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,640
The judge is saying don't
804
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,840
think it's about
whether it be it as a representative,
805
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:26,280
not about whether or not you can serve
because you were involved.
806
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,320
Your involvement
was therefore your responsibility.
807
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,920
But it must be
same thing about it as well.
808
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,840
But the point is that since the first
result you don't know many good cases that
809
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,040
you should have to be complete
and it's not something
810
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,040
that you want to set in a lot of debate
on how to implement stuff,
811
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:47,240
even though
812
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:50,840
I'm going to just argue it's common sense.
813
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,680
Yeah, well, otherwise it does
just a lot of the same things as well.
814
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,040
Yeah,
815
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,120
but if he doesn't, we can always
816
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,120
bring them all. So.
817
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:01,840
Yeah.
818
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,840
So can you keep hold of cards right now?
819
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:06,440
Yeah. I'm still going to
820
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:16,520
look right.
821
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:20,280
Okay.
822
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:21,560
Well,
823
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,560
look, I'm not following up on
824
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:47,240
the same sentence,
825
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:12,000
but I suppose
826
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:15,720
it's keeping
827
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,280
you doing a massive catch.
828
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,280
Well, photocopying as well
829
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,000
is almost like doing your first company.
830
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,000
Well, I mean, I'm going to go.
831
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:28,120
Well, that's good.
832
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,200
But I was going to give you
this custom products.
833
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:34,240
I've got a couple
834
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,680
with them and I make, you know,
835
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:05,880
I'm ready.
836
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:07,880
Okay? Yeah. Okay.
837
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,880
Okay. Go.
838
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:44,640
Right?
839
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:44,880
Yeah.
840
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,600
I mean, I most
841
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,120
certainly get all members that have
842
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:50,800
some of them.
843
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,800
Well,
I was there for some up in houses, so
844
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,280
that's a lot of money.
845
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:03,680
Can you know these interpretations of
actually
846
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,680
is that anything with that
you must be polite to McDonald.
847
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:11,600
So if you say multinationals do X, Y
and Z, then this goes,
848
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,160
yeah, if you say
multinationals are starving world poor,
849
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:19,320
then that may involve the middleman
from the North Pole
850
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:23,600
factory by McDonald
actually groups it certainly do anything
851
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:25,640
we just think about that.
852
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,360
I mean
853
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:31,360
so we do a documentary,
854
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,240
you know
855
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,000
how many times you're 12
856
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,640
It doesn't really that far fetched sales,
857
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,640
the stuff that you could do, it's
all of your supply.
858
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,280
I thought you've done loads of stuff.
859
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,200
You can bugger
860
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:02,480
it all.
861
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,480
Small print though, and concisely written.
862
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,240
You. Yeah, well, very
863
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,840
loose cut, loose production.
864
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,840
I'm getting busy, but I
865
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:16,280
just.
866
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,280
It's just to.
867
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:47,280
Somebody did tell us that.
868
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:50,040
But whether or not it's. Yeah.
869
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:52,240
You know, we can never
870
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:53,960
say and I think know
871
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,960
I was pretty you know it's really
872
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:00,360
relative market
873
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:01,960
anyway
874
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:04,120
we're just telling the truth
875
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,120
You can't stand here.
876
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:17,680
Okay Right.
877
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:19,000
So that is in evidence.
878
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,000
The 1997 agreement.
879
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,440
Yeah.
880
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:31,840
Did you check that European stuff?
881
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:33,640
Yeah.
882
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:36,640
And there's nothing else? No,
883
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,600
definitely
884
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:47,240
one great chunk.
885
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:54,520
because obviously they're
886
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:57,520
going to argue that data.
887
01:04:57,520 --> 01:04:59,560
there's no just so there's no evidence.
888
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:02,320
It's just not
889
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,320
well put in evidence or scandalous.
890
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:08,800
There's no credible
evidence is no credible that.
891
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:09,720
Yeah.
892
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,600
So I remember them
893
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:14,520
telling me about making changes.
894
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,560
We can't ever change outcomes
as long as I write them all down and do.
895
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:20,520
Yeah. What makes you think you do this?
896
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:22,880
Well, you can write more down,
but I've got
897
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,000
lots of coffee
and all the changes that you suggested.
898
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:27,240
So and I don't know much.
899
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:29,000
I just don't know what to bring up.
900
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:30,920
It's a waste of time.
901
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,200
Well, it's not hard to discuss
kind of things, know, We can discuss that.
902
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:35,080
We can.
903
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:46,800
You know, I think that's a good point.
904
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,520
But the literary central thing,
and that's the public concern
905
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,520
as well as the major obligation,
906
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:06,000
you know, those still to come in
907
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:09,040
the form of the relevant.
908
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,160
But of course.
909
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,000
Okay, so we go through one of those,
910
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:20,000
not the first
911
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:25,440
point about the meaning of the.
912
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,160
yeah.
913
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:56,360
Is is so
914
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:02,280
no, we we want to have the medium
915
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:43,360
volumes on.
916
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:53,280
I mean some of these points
have to go into the framework
917
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,280
because they form the backdrop
to the European point.
918
01:07:56,360 --> 01:08:00,760
Me and all of that content etc..
919
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,000
A of numbers were
920
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:09,880
famous persons and we will get some,
921
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,400
you know, anything about political speech.
922
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:21,760
Well I've got some circulation
in communist Poland.
923
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,160
Stroke, satirical, political stripe.
924
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:25,240
Satirical. Yeah.
925
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:28,800
What's going on?
926
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:29,560
Political.
927
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:32,560
Yeah, it's trying satirical concepts
928
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:38,720
in a multibillion dollar
929
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,040
multi donor,
930
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:44,400
should we say,
931
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:48,200
particularly in regard to the US
free speech or should we go through?
932
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:51,720
Yeah, I've never really helped
someone get through to go through what
933
01:08:52,440 --> 01:08:55,520
I've done more to come on to point.
934
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:58,200
I know because if you don't do that.
935
01:08:58,200 --> 01:08:59,240
No that's not a crap point.
936
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:02,240
It's a very good point in terms
of propaganda, but it's not legal.
937
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:04,800
But I think we we, we get it in.
938
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:06,880
We've got a statement.
We've got an attorney standing on that.
939
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,000
So we just want to get that in
as evidence.
940
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:12,960
It doesn't really matter how we do it
and what we hope we hang it.
941
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:16,760
Possibly our reputation
942
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:18,680
that their reputation
943
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:22,680
as a corporation will be dependent
upon largely the American
944
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,840
communications, which would be this
and then go through this through accounts.
945
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:28,040
It doesn't obviously
946
01:09:52,920 --> 01:10:19,080
this means it's
947
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:03,920
not we're
948
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:07,320
going to actually go
through a legal framework with us.
949
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:10,080
Okay.
950
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:12,800
Well, that's right, isn't it?
951
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:16,080
Can we say something about
because I mean, Derbyshire doesn't say
952
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:19,440
that this plus multinationals say
that it should be extended
953
01:11:19,440 --> 01:11:22,440
to multinationals.
954
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:24,000
I mean, effectively,
955
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:27,160
we all saying that,
but they might depend on.
956
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:27,400
Yeah.
957
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:31,560
In other words, the principles extracts
from the case of Derbyshire are equally
958
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:36,840
or should be applied principles
be pliable, not to put it straight in.
959
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:37,920
Yeah.
960
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:41,640
The thing is we're not going to have time
to go through all the documents
961
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:44,360
so everyone's word
962
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:47,480
and so we can put in the important stuff.
963
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:54,600
Don't worry about spell checks.
964
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:57,600
I know
965
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:09,120
about the principles
966
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,120
applied in Derbyshire to
967
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:15,720
to government
or bodies should be extended to
968
01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:21,440
or should be applied to multinationals.
969
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,800
Yeah.
970
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:32,040
Local authorities.
971
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:32,720
I wasn't.
972
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:35,720
Yeah.
973
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,840
Apply where they
974
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:41,920
applied
975
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:44,360
to say any multinational
976
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:47,640
or to a multinationals pretty big
977
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,920
and a multinational of the size
978
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:55,040
and character
nature and scope of the plaintiffs.
979
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:57,600
Yeah. Yeah.
980
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:00,600
So any moment now
any any multinationals got be praising
981
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:03,440
them.
982
01:13:03,440 --> 01:13:05,360
See appendix one.
983
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:08,360
Well it should be something
to the effect of
984
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:10,280
cannot it.
985
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:16,280
But to have a pay
because of their size etc.
986
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:19,280
have a massive influence
over people's lives
987
01:13:20,480 --> 01:13:22,200
equal to local authority.
988
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:26,160
That is that is all in that appendix
one anyway as a whole great long
989
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:27,720
huge treaties.
990
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,080
So you think that's covers. Yeah.
991
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:30,880
Huge job.
992
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:35,760
In fact we find it
because corporate identity in the court.
993
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:36,280
Right. And
994
01:13:37,480 --> 01:13:38,800
sure enough
995
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,520
so in the end you have in place right.
996
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:44,920
All right look after part two.
997
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:48,640
So basically they do not know whether it's
fair to say they've got to cover it.
998
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,320
They've got to show loss.
999
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:50,760
Yeah.
1000
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:53,760
Also,
1001
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:56,400
I thought that
1002
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,400
that applied to companies as well.
1003
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:05,160
What they don't have to show
does we're saying it should be different.
1004
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:06,200
Right. Okay. Yeah.
1005
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,200
This is an argument
for the change of the law
1006
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:12,440
and I'm saying the reason for
is with the basis so decision.
1007
01:14:12,440 --> 01:14:15,360
And so when it was introduced
it was only for individuals,
1008
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:17,520
but it's been extended
in the first place.
1009
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:20,640
No company
ever thought of suing to a century.
1010
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:24,880
So when it first
1011
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:27,200
when it was first introduced,
it was because you couldn't
1012
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:28,920
quantify the loss to a particular person.
1013
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,400
Right. You they're looking
other people don't think so.
1014
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:34,200
Yeah.
1015
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:36,880
You have to go now.
1016
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:37,240
Yeah.
1017
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:41,200
They're in a different position
than have a general reputation
1018
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:42,720
for things or trading reputation.
1019
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:45,600
Now he accepts that doesn't happen
1020
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:47,120
around ten.
1021
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:50,120
I think so, yeah.
1022
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:53,360
Except and the argument
is that to allow them to claim
1023
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:56,360
general damages is going to take them
beyond
1024
01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:57,480
that reputation.
1025
01:14:57,480 --> 01:15:00,200
Yeah.
1026
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:03,200
And problems not
1027
01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:05,880
for anything else.
1028
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:08,280
Anything allows
1029
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,280
companies
committing to try and get so far five.
1030
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:13,000
That's the focus for me.
1031
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:13,760
I haven't got anything.
1032
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:17,640
So per five the thing to watch is the
the General Petraeus case
1033
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:19,920
is not a complaint, isn't it?
1034
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:22,920
Because it does say that companies will
be able to see without proving damage.
1035
01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:25,440
That's another point.
That's another point.
1036
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:25,840
Yeah.
1037
01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:27,760
I mean, with that we set out the quote
I think is enough,
1038
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:31,160
don't you, without putting the case
before you guys, right?
1039
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:31,720
Yeah.
1040
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:36,040
Per six,
1041
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:37,720
the Red Cross
1042
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:40,720
refers to your point on virtues. Yes.
1043
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:43,920
So basically I'm saying you guys matches
that you can read into the agreement
1044
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,840
that they didn't think it was causing them
any loss.
1045
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:48,720
You know, just about that loss.
1046
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:49,680
Yeah.
1047
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,320
To do the job for
1048
01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:55,360
the court was in places
I'm sitting because of the digital world
1049
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:58,920
for its publication to continue
what we've manifested precisely because it
1050
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:03,680
considers contracts which are or not
or not such as to damage the plaintiffs.
1051
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:06,840
The point is either it's damaged
their reputation, in which case,
1052
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:09,840
how can they show
that our distribution is damaged?
1053
01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:11,600
Yeah, but that's not the point
that you started with.
1054
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:12,960
What is dealing with here.
1055
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:15,200
Is this common
1056
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:18,200
or other is damage and they've allowed
the right place to be damaged?
1057
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:21,960
Yeah, no, I was just about to start
a sentence at the end to
1058
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:24,880
the it both ways.
1059
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:27,880
Yeah.
1060
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:31,080
Which things are going to be enforced
as an issue
1061
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:34,080
is that we just want to a general site
1062
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:38,920
just to reinforce effectively
1063
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,520
so even it is damaging their reputation
in which case
1064
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:45,640
but without that's happened
1065
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:50,280
in line with what you've done
1066
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:55,920
presumably it was only the second
plaintiff in fact issued an order.
1067
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:58,200
Yes, I think that's right.
1068
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,760
I think it was plaintiff
1069
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:01,840
that was a settlement, though.
1070
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:03,920
So that does mean that
1071
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:06,920
I think we're going
1072
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:16,880
even eventually
1073
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:19,880
that's causing that, in which case
1074
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:24,120
the complaint of
1075
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:32,960
quite a lawsuit
1076
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:40,520
we don't cause them loss either.
1077
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:53,160
All has
1078
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:56,160
caused
1079
01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:58,560
repair effective
1080
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:01,080
agreement
1081
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:04,080
and then
1082
01:18:04,440 --> 01:18:07,440
all the plaintiffs have
1083
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:11,080
by the plaintiffs have accepted that.
1084
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:15,560
And now that the loss
is indistinguishable.
1085
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:16,800
yeah.
1086
01:18:21,960 --> 01:18:23,120
Of course them no loss.
1087
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:24,680
In which case
the fact she complained of Canada.
1088
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:25,920
Of course not either.
1089
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:28,920
Or that it has caused an loss
but with agreement.
1090
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,920
And now that loss is indistinguishable
from any further loss.
1091
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:32,200
Is it
1092
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:35,880
is it worth saying that the plaintiff's
allegation in all cases
1093
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:39,320
that the most serious part
of the most seriously damaging part
1094
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:41,640
of the factories,
the nutrition section of the case,
1095
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:46,960
and they didn't make any changes to that
or request any changes
1096
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:51,840
requested and changes
to inspections of plaintiffs. Now,
1097
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:55,840
we say disingenuously, no.
1098
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:56,640
And then they said test.
1099
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,400
We agree with their case.
They're saying the British Mr..
1100
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:00,680
Was all right.
1101
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:03,200
Most notably, the plaintiffs now say
1102
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:05,760
the nutrition
1103
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:09,040
section
of the case of the name of the factory
1104
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:14,280
but damage
1105
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:19,280
yet they haven't made any
1106
01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:23,760
or any of that, you know, any crop yet.
1107
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:27,480
They make no complaint whatsoever
of this part in the veggie section
1108
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:31,680
that no
1109
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:33,440
whatsoever.
1110
01:19:33,440 --> 01:19:36,160
Yeah, well, none whatsoever.
1111
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:39,160
And to do that, that is in class and
1112
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:44,680
but just a minute
1113
01:19:50,480 --> 01:19:52,600
satirical
1114
01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:54,560
headlines
1115
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:57,360
about a satirical headline.
1116
01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:00,480
So yeah, the satirical banner had once
1117
01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:05,040
again calcium and the concern
1118
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:07,560
and concern.
1119
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:10,560
Yeah so yeah
1120
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:12,960
okay seven
1121
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:17,480
well it's stressful I kind of glad I for
1122
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:26,040
yeah yeah
1123
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:30,880
I that's right writing it
my first question is that
1124
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:33,960
others are saying yes no
1125
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:35,920
I mean the reason I'm that you know
1126
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:38,920
but so guys glass in case
which I quite like from someone
1127
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:42,640
you know I read that they have
Yeah yeah but
1128
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:47,760
it's always patient not paranoid or I
Yeah I haven't got anything to say
1129
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:54,320
On to 1112 1331 at the middle
1130
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:00,000
13 be multi
1131
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:03,440
mostly don't you know
billion dollar is small.
1132
01:21:03,480 --> 01:21:06,600
$1 anyway multi dollar billion.
1133
01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:07,920
Okay.
1134
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:11,840
And also when I say they obviously
put out yet not thousand yet
1135
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:14,920
and we've said be
1136
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,160
thousands millions but millions
1137
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:24,160
because I do know I know
1138
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:28,120
they will lose tens of millions of
1139
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:32,280
it's got billions and billions
1140
01:21:33,240 --> 01:21:39,960
of the stakes here forcing 14.
1141
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:43,400
Yeah the fact is a political strike
1142
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:46,400
satirical
1143
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:49,280
and utterly satirical
1144
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:52,320
or dependent
on political satirical context.
1145
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:55,040
Well going to have to
change the second part.
1146
01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:58,800
That's how special to be able
to specialties either because it is
1147
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:02,920
I don't think
you should put in the political
1148
01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:07,000
that was the whole other paragraph
is going to take part in it
1149
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:08,760
but that's two separate things
1150
01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:14,160
or sanitize those
1151
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:18,360
and relish those two lines
1152
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:22,360
to political statement.
1153
01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:27,600
So what we all say, it's
1154
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:33,960
the it goes
1155
01:22:33,960 --> 01:22:36,320
in the heart
1156
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:39,320
of a discussion of
1157
01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:43,560
freedom of speech in a democracy.
1158
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:44,560
It's not about that.
1159
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:47,360
But what does it mean
if you have a political speech?
1160
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:49,920
What can you have?
1161
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:50,320
Okay.
1162
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:53,320
58 post democracy, what we put the
1163
01:22:54,280 --> 01:22:56,480
before what
1164
01:22:56,480 --> 01:22:59,480
others because democracy
that we are at least slightly it
1165
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:04,800
now you've got less but this is it's
satirical speech less like like
1166
01:23:05,320 --> 01:23:08,520
yeah that's why it's two separate things
I suppose Not a good idea
1167
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:11,520
to some extent
1168
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:14,520
either because in relation
1169
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:22,680
to saw on the thing
1170
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:26,040
that you're going to get really,
it's just idiosyncratic things.
1171
01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:30,520
You can't just I had just because most of
political speech goes to the heart.
1172
01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:31,840
Yeah, that's very good.
1173
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:32,480
All right.
1174
01:23:32,480 --> 01:23:34,840
Can we put in context just go back
1175
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:37,960
complain about
1176
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:41,200
is in content or context is that.
1177
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:45,280
Yeah, that's right.
1178
01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:50,520
Okay. Yes.
1179
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:54,520
Okay so 16 be No, hang on.
1180
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:57,600
Yeah. I don't understand. 1515.
1181
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:00,000
Do you want to just say see the opinion.
1182
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:01,800
Yeah. Yeah. But that's a minus. Right.
1183
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:04,800
But the point now is
the point is that the point.
1184
01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:08,120
The point is what we're saying is
have they said in the US things we
1185
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:10,000
what is getting the US stuff
into something about how we do it.
1186
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:10,680
Yeah. Yeah.
1187
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:11,640
What is the ballocks.
1188
01:24:11,640 --> 01:24:12,280
We them.
1189
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:15,280
But I think they come up
1190
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:19,760
with a reputation.
1191
01:24:20,120 --> 01:24:21,920
Well I think we can get it
in on a reputation. Yeah.
1192
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:23,080
Because the point.
1193
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:26,440
The point is that their reputation
as a corporation is dependent,
1194
01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:31,000
but mainly on the US reputation
in the States.
1195
01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:32,080
They will not be able to serve.
1196
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:36,920
Therefore, it's considered that their
reputation in the state is considered
1197
01:24:39,440 --> 01:24:42,720
to be robust or
1198
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:46,960
blah, blah blah.
1199
01:24:47,080 --> 01:24:50,440
So I'm saying in the US
legal context is concerned.
1200
01:24:50,440 --> 01:24:52,200
They have no right to say this as well.
1201
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:55,680
I've never understood this,
but the preeminent symbol of opposition
1202
01:24:56,080 --> 01:24:57,480
shall adopted by this court.
1203
01:24:57,480 --> 01:25:00,480
You don't like that.
1204
01:25:00,760 --> 01:25:02,040
Yeah, that's fine, That's all fine.
1205
01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:05,840
And then, you know,
let's just one sentence in Any of us
1206
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:09,640
that insists the defendant is
1207
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:13,360
no question
1208
01:25:13,360 --> 01:25:16,280
whether the first
1209
01:25:16,280 --> 01:25:19,200
certainly has any reputation
1210
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:22,200
as notable ally in the UK.
1211
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:25,920
I think that somewhere else
1212
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:28,920
we did have but it got lost
nice and got lots of glamor.
1213
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:33,160
well I have to incorporate these see.
1214
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:35,200
Yeah, that's it.
1215
01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:38,200
See appendix the appendix
1216
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:43,320
from the appendix go to pieces.
1217
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:45,440
Okay.
1218
01:25:45,440 --> 01:25:48,640
I understand from its,
its reputation around the world
1219
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:53,160
by some fantastic statements
that plaintiffs rather than defendants
1220
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:56,320
got the be fair plaintiffs
1221
01:25:57,440 --> 01:25:59,040
who you
1222
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:01,080
first point I lost have.
1223
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:07,200
Yeah I've got
1224
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:10,680
I've got a paragraph on self-defense.
1225
01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:12,720
What's wrong here
1226
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:15,720
that is inconsistent
with that discrepancy.
1227
01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:17,400
Can you put
1228
01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:20,680
clarify provided you're happy
with this case, but it needs to be
1229
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:24,360
that it's been extra sentence
about serving a balance
1230
01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:29,440
that society it's not just privilege,
it's also self-defense,
1231
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:34,680
especially in the not, for example,
the elements in the case and what you guys
1232
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:38,360
of the misuse of the system.
1233
01:26:38,440 --> 01:26:41,560
I mean, you know,
if you have a general defense to defend
1234
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:45,640
something more than just yourself,
you know, not obligation to defend
1235
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:50,240
others as well.
1236
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:51,600
If someone decides
1237
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:55,360
and you attacked the attacker,
you plead self-defense.
1238
01:26:56,440 --> 01:26:58,560
Yeah,
1239
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,000
it's not so it's defense.
1240
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:02,840
It should be
privileged is privileged. In fact, law
1241
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:06,080
provides a greater crime.
1242
01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:08,080
Yeah. So. All right.
1243
01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:14,000
So I can do that at a time, I suppose,
for another parish, this pope just put.
1244
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:16,320
Yeah, I'm just
1245
01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:17,880
brought up on those.
1246
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:20,880
I mean, so basically it's in any event,
1247
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:26,640
any event over there to a privilege.
1248
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:28,120
I mean it would be complete privilege.
1249
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:29,280
So there is no there is.
1250
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:33,400
There is that it's recognized in law
that you have a line.
1251
01:27:33,440 --> 01:27:35,920
It's not doesn't matter,
but not in general law.
1252
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:38,760
And you're entitled to take action
to prevent crime.
1253
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:39,320
That's for sure.
1254
01:27:39,320 --> 01:27:42,520
That the privilege as it is pertain
1255
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:46,720
to the can
1256
01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:00,120
that what the
1257
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:02,720
I wouldn't worry about it.
1258
01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:05,400
I can do something not to discuss it.
1259
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:08,400
But you
1260
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:10,200
only just put them down. And
1261
01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:14,160
the point is the self will safeguard
1262
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:17,760
the rights of others. Yes.
1263
01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:20,280
Okay. Particularly important in this case.
1264
01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:22,440
You got all the employees.
1265
01:28:22,440 --> 01:28:24,960
We've got a McDonald's,
you know, denial, have rights
1266
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:27,960
to employees, animals and children.
1267
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:31,040
The point is,
those three categories of people,
1268
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:34,040
living beings
1269
01:28:34,200 --> 01:28:36,880
were exposed to employees,
1270
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,880
children and animals.
1271
01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:45,360
yeah.
1272
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:47,760
Well, that needs to be just changed
and that's just fine.
1273
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:50,760
I can do that. Animals can't fight that.
1274
01:28:51,320 --> 01:28:52,720
You know, children can't fight back.
1275
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:54,960
Yeah, workers could fight back.
1276
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:57,800
They just got no rights in the contract
assignment contracts.
1277
01:28:57,800 --> 01:28:59,400
Gives them no rights. Yeah.
1278
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:02,400
Okay. See?
1279
01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:07,000
Not even allowed to discuss the conditions
of work out with outside bodies.
1280
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:09,720
So people have got to intervene
and evidence.
1281
01:29:09,720 --> 01:29:11,880
Yeah. Is it, you know, he said.
1282
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:15,000
It's a summary sackable offense
to discuss with him.
1283
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:17,800
Let's just put that then.
1284
01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:21,560
That's the point about the evidence
clearly doesn't make sense.
1285
01:29:21,960 --> 01:29:23,120
It is a
1286
01:29:24,480 --> 01:29:27,440
as I would
1287
01:29:27,440 --> 01:29:29,200
to to was
1288
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:34,400
to the right to this note to discuss
is to inform an outside party
1289
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:37,400
regarding conditions
1290
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:43,720
I'm talking about
1291
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:51,840
from time to time.
1292
01:29:57,040 --> 01:29:58,320
Okay we'll look at that.
1293
01:29:58,320 --> 01:30:00,480
Yeah I'll,
I'll just put dot, dot, dot, dot.
1294
01:30:00,480 --> 01:30:02,760
So remember
1295
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:04,680
that's okay.
1296
01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:06,280
I'll do the same
with animals and children.
1297
01:30:06,280 --> 01:30:08,200
This recognize that they're virgin
territory.
1298
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:11,200
Children animals
obviously can't defend selves
1299
01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:15,280
on the facts of the case
but approve of the reversed. Yes.
1300
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:17,640
So we have a
no no. But we ought to be here.
1301
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:20,520
Okay. I need to make sure that's fine.
1302
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:23,520
I mean, all rhetorical, that's all.
1303
01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:25,080
That's all.
1304
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:29,360
All I got Anything else
from my punishment?
1305
01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:31,160
I mean. That's right, isn't it?
1306
01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:32,760
Yeah, but we can pick that up.
1307
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:34,600
And the public only knows
McDonald's doesn't.
1308
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:38,080
It Doesn't know Donald's
not of restaurants and what the different.
1309
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:39,120
Fine.
1310
01:30:39,120 --> 01:30:40,360
We don't know what the difference is.
1311
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:42,600
And the judge has been wrong.
1312
01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:46,680
One is the world holding company
and those are the franchise companies.
1313
01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:52,440
no I of the franchise wholly owned
subsidiary.
1314
01:30:52,440 --> 01:30:55,360
UK subsidiary. Yeah.
1315
01:30:55,360 --> 01:30:58,080
Have you checked with him to the.
1316
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:00,240
I haven't Yeah I was going to now.
1317
01:31:00,240 --> 01:31:03,120
Yeah. Don't do that. Socialite
Chuck is the main bloke.
1318
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:07,080
I don't actually think it's a good idea
to have everything in the same document
1319
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:08,080
because I think it's just going
1320
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:11,080
to make a nightmare
every time you've got to rewrite the,
1321
01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:13,320
you've got to reprint the whole thing.
1322
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:17,200
I'll just think it's much better
to have that sort of thing for each thing.
1323
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:18,760
Yeah.
1324
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:19,880
Yeah. Okay.
1325
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:22,880
Well, I'll do some.
1326
01:31:23,280 --> 01:31:25,400
If you could say a couple more.
1327
01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:28,920
I'm going to probably agree with Helen,
but I mean, it's just for a little while.
1328
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:30,560
I think we should all be one doctor.
1329
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:33,000
We give to the judge part
from publication, which means doing
1330
01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:35,760
it because it's going to be a nightmare.
1331
01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:36,760
Yeah, we'll try and organize.
1332
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:40,120
But the reality is,
if they if we find it as one document,
1333
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:42,240
we're not going to have it all ready
for tomorrow.
1334
01:31:42,240 --> 01:31:45,760
No, but if, if we've got to know really,
if we've,
1335
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:48,840
if we've got it in separate documents,
then we can hand up it
1336
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:51,840
when it's ready.
1337
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:52,880
Just not as well.
1338
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:56,480
I've got 25 different,
you know, appendices or whatever.
1339
01:31:56,480 --> 01:31:59,480
So just go through the,
1340
01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:04,160
the main one and put and also see
number one and mock mock up. Yes.
1341
01:32:04,160 --> 01:32:07,160
But also I've got to move some stuff
from here
1342
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:10,160
to that one and vice versa because
1343
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:14,120
so it ought to be in the same document
1344
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:16,080
or that could be
why don't you just put it as an appendix
1345
01:32:16,080 --> 01:32:18,960
at the back of that document
rather than within it
1346
01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:21,840
Put the legal framework
at the end of the last one.
1347
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:23,400
Yeah. So it's not actually.
1348
01:32:24,480 --> 01:32:24,600
Yeah.
1349
01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:27,720
That, but I mean
I think it comes up front to be honest.
1350
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,320
I know, but the point I was making is that
it's upfront, it's in the document.
1351
01:32:33,080 --> 01:32:34,440
I don't know what you get in that.
1352
01:32:34,440 --> 01:32:36,800
I mean if it's in a separate file,
you can put it where
1353
01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:40,280
I don't want anything separate file,
but I can't work on it in separate files.
1354
01:32:40,280 --> 01:32:41,720
I'm going to have to shift stuff around.
1355
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:43,920
So I want it
all in the same actually very document.
1356
01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:45,920
If I can't do it, that's just a fact.
1357
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:48,920
Well, if you took about 2 minutes,
you know, I can't just.
1358
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:52,600
Well, look, what I do with it, I think
should put it at the end of a document.
1359
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:56,280
So it's it's in it, but
it's at the end of the list altogether.
1360
01:32:56,280 --> 01:32:56,760
So that was
1361
01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:00,800
right.
1362
01:33:01,800 --> 01:33:04,800
You saved it.
1363
01:33:05,480 --> 01:33:08,920
Little 501.
1364
01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:11,840
Have you got the date?
1365
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:13,160
Ask can you. Can you.
1366
01:33:13,160 --> 01:33:16,160
So do it. So
1367
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:19,120
yeah.
1368
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:19,560
Frame up.
1369
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:22,560
Just just do it again
1370
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:28,280
once.
1371
01:33:30,760 --> 01:33:31,680
What have you got?
1372
01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:33,760
What do you want to put on there?
1373
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:36,000
Are you going to say this one away again.
1374
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:37,240
I haven't got another of with me.
1375
01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:38,400
Well I've got this this quote.
1376
01:33:38,400 --> 01:33:42,400
I'm from burning buildings and playground.
1377
01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:46,480
This is another one
that I want in the tent.
1378
01:33:46,480 --> 01:33:48,240
So if
1379
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:51,240
and then the previous one.
1380
01:33:51,800 --> 01:33:54,360
Okay. This damage. Yeah.
1381
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:55,080
This is not good.
1382
01:33:55,080 --> 01:33:56,760
It is rubbish.
1383
01:33:56,760 --> 01:33:59,080
Is it. Yeah.
1384
01:33:59,080 --> 01:34:02,040
Well it's tough and you know, there is
I've signed a separate document.
1385
01:34:02,040 --> 01:34:03,360
I'll put it all in one document,
1386
01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:06,360
I'll do three different versions
and then you can find out later.
1387
01:34:08,280 --> 01:34:08,920
What you've got
1388
01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:12,240
to do is, is when you're in one document,
press f five,
1389
01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:16,560
get the directory of documents,
and then select the ones that you meant.
1390
01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:18,640
And it gets through that document.
1391
01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:20,520
And it is so easy, right?
1392
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:23,520
I don't
I just want to add in one document.
1393
01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:27,760
You want it in two different documents,
1394
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:44,760
right?
1395
01:34:44,760 --> 01:35:46,560
So and also Don Mills on my right,
1396
01:35:46,560 --> 01:35:50,480
I'd just like them to say a few words
in particular in relation to suppression
1397
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:53,840
and freedom of speech, which is really
another whole aspect of this case.
1398
01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:56,840
CARE has assisted them
throughout voluntarily.
1399
01:35:57,120 --> 01:35:58,320
Sending you a barrister?
1400
01:35:58,320 --> 01:35:59,560
Yes, I'm a barrister.
1401
01:35:59,560 --> 01:36:02,560
Help Dave and Helen
throughout this campaign.
1402
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:05,680
Can I just say this in response
to the thrust of the questions
1403
01:36:05,680 --> 01:36:07,320
that have been put so far,
1404
01:36:07,320 --> 01:36:11,280
all litigation has to be judged
by the objectives of the parties.
1405
01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:15,440
The objectives of McDonald's
in bringing this case was to silence
1406
01:36:15,440 --> 01:36:19,240
Dave and Helen, and that's why they choose
to chose to sue here, etc.
1407
01:36:19,560 --> 01:36:23,880
They set up seven issues in this trial
for determination.
1408
01:36:24,160 --> 01:36:26,160
They chose those issues.
1409
01:36:26,160 --> 01:36:29,160
And given the inequality
between Dave and Helen,
1410
01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:33,720
and then they had to win on every issue
if they were to achieve their objectives,
1411
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:37,840
Dave and Helen did not win
one or two minor battles.
1412
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:43,280
They won two of those issues outright
and they won half of two other issues.
1413
01:36:43,480 --> 01:36:47,000
Now that isn't a bad record
and that is not a victory for McDonald's.
1414
01:36:47,280 --> 01:36:51,680
For McDonald's, the only victory
to was to win all seven issues.
1415
01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:55,000
They had the libel team,
the expert team of lawyers
1416
01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:58,880
working for the last five years
behind the scenes and in court for them.
1417
01:36:59,080 --> 01:37:02,440
Dave and Helen
had the occasional bit of advice from me
1418
01:37:02,560 --> 01:37:04,960
when they could come
and I could give it to them.
1419
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:08,280
That's where the victory lies
in the fact that they've won almost half
1420
01:37:08,280 --> 01:37:11,280
of this case
with those odds stacked against them.
1421
01:37:11,280 --> 01:37:14,520
And let me say this,
if I may, Questions of bankruptcy
1422
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:19,040
and paying the damages will only apply
if Dave and Helen don't win in.
1423
01:37:19,800 --> 01:37:23,480
And I have no doubt in my mind
that the European Court of Human Rights
1424
01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:26,680
on its jurisprudence
so far will decide that
1425
01:37:26,960 --> 01:37:30,200
the longest ever case in this country
1426
01:37:30,360 --> 01:37:34,680
with no legal aid against
McDonald's is an unequal trial.
1427
01:37:34,680 --> 01:37:36,920
That is a breach of Article
six of the convention.
1428
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:38,760
In five years time, we will be having
1429
01:37:38,760 --> 01:37:42,400
another press conference with you
in which we will have one on all issues
1430
01:37:42,520 --> 01:37:45,560
and there will be no question
of damages or of bankruptcy.
1431
01:37:55,080 --> 01:37:56,840
And now, Dan, from the campaign
1432
01:37:56,840 --> 01:37:59,840
getting involved since the beginning
1433
01:38:52,720 --> 01:38:53,760
of the main verdict,
1434
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:57,480
Dave and Helen appealed to the Court
of Appeal on a number of important
1435
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:01,240
points, including some of the points
that they subsequently raised
1436
01:39:01,480 --> 01:39:02,960
before the European Court.
1437
01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:07,520
And significantly, they won on
a number of issues in the court appeal.
1438
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:11,680
Working conditions was one of them
and heart disease was another.
1439
01:39:11,680 --> 01:39:15,080
They were very important issues and
the Court of Appeal found in their favor.
1440
01:39:15,240 --> 01:39:20,400
That means that the scope
for criticizing multinationals on issues
1441
01:39:20,760 --> 01:39:25,200
such as bad working conditions
and the link between diet
1442
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:28,200
and health abroad than, they would
otherwise be
1443
01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:31,800
would you know about the damages?
1444
01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:33,400
They reduced the damages to May
1445
01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:36,360
14? Yeah.
1446
01:39:36,360 --> 01:39:38,200
So I think
1447
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:39,960
the Court of Appeal also
1448
01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:43,800
reduced the damages
payable to McDonald's,
1449
01:39:43,800 --> 01:39:46,880
although the sum was still high for people
without any
1450
01:39:46,920 --> 01:39:50,520
substantial income,
it was good that it was reduced
1451
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:53,600
from the award
that was given by the High Court.
1452
01:39:53,600 --> 01:39:56,600
They haven't paid other.
1453
01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:01,120
The award of damages
1454
01:40:01,120 --> 01:40:05,040
is so high
in relative terms for two people
1455
01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:09,920
without any real income that there's
no prospect of them ever being paid.
1456
01:40:10,200 --> 01:40:13,200
And that's a major factor
for freedom of speech.
1457
01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:17,640
Well, that's kind of is
1458
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:23,880
one of the curious aspects of this case,
is that the leaflets that MacDonald
1459
01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:27,200
complained about were
1460
01:40:27,280 --> 01:40:31,160
produced much more extensively during
and after the case than they ever
1461
01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:34,800
were before
and were read by many thousands of people
1462
01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:38,640
who would never have seen them had
McDonald's not brought the case.
1463
01:40:38,960 --> 01:40:42,600
So in many respects
it was counterproductive.
1464
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:44,760
So far as McDonald's were concerned,
1465
01:40:44,760 --> 01:40:47,720
it would be open to McDonald's
to take action against anyone
1466
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:51,000
they thought was handing out
defamatory leaflets about them.
1467
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:54,520
But I think the public relations disaster
that this case was
1468
01:40:54,520 --> 01:40:58,120
will mean, that they're very unlikely,
if ever, to do that.
1469
01:40:58,960 --> 01:41:01,960
The only basis for us, again,
1470
01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:05,160
the only basis upon which David
1471
01:41:05,160 --> 01:41:08,160
Helland could be sent to prison
is if McDonald's
1472
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:12,360
force the payment of their damages
and Dave
1473
01:41:12,360 --> 01:41:15,680
and Helen were able to pay
but refuse to pay.
1474
01:41:16,080 --> 01:41:19,000
It's extremely unlikely
that McDonald's are going to take
1475
01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:22,760
such a step because it will bring
them further bad publicity
1476
01:41:25,360 --> 01:41:26,760
like it does.
1477
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:28,160
This was some of the stuff
1478
01:41:28,160 --> 01:41:31,560
we raised in Strasbourg just to remind me
what the case was about.
1479
01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:35,800
But without slightly a little bit stuff
1480
01:41:37,080 --> 01:41:40,080
that wouldn't.
1481
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:41,040
Yeah.
1482
01:41:41,040 --> 01:41:46,320
The real problem with libel law
as it stands is that
1483
01:41:46,320 --> 01:41:49,560
the burden is on the defendant
and therefore in this case was on Dave
1484
01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:52,800
and Helen
to prove the truth of everything
1485
01:41:52,840 --> 01:41:56,520
in the leaflet
that they're alleged to have handed out,
1486
01:41:57,120 --> 01:42:00,240
or at least the truth of everything
that they committed on,
1487
01:42:00,240 --> 01:42:05,800
that's a huge a disproportionate burden
made much more difficult
1488
01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:09,680
by the fact that they're not even allowed
to rely on secondary sources, i.e.
1489
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:11,160
what other people have written
1490
01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:14,440
on the subject that which
they genuinely believed to be true.
1491
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:18,240
And that's a real problem
with libel law in this country.
1492
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:20,880
An example of the difficulty
1493
01:42:22,320 --> 01:42:23,800
was given in relation
1494
01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:27,440
to the evidence about where
McDonald's meat really comes from.
1495
01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:31,640
Obviously, that's well within McDonald's
McDonald's knowledge anyway.
1496
01:42:31,920 --> 01:42:36,680
But what Dave and Helen had to prove
by going back to the actual producers
1497
01:42:36,960 --> 01:42:40,120
is where the meat was coming from,
rather than relying what on what
1498
01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:43,120
other people
were claiming to be the source.
1499
01:42:43,320 --> 01:42:48,520
So it's a huge, huge task involved
trying to track down people in America.
1500
01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:52,080
Impossible for people
without any wealth and money
1501
01:42:54,120 --> 01:42:56,560
is that overlapping
to many different issues.
1502
01:42:56,560 --> 01:42:58,680
Yeah. Okay. Do you want to do that again?
1503
01:42:58,680 --> 01:42:59,160
Yeah.
1504
01:42:59,160 --> 01:43:02,160
what was the question again?
1505
01:43:02,200 --> 01:43:06,120
One of the real problems with labor
law is it's heavily
1506
01:43:06,120 --> 01:43:10,040
weighted against defendants
and against free speech.
1507
01:43:10,440 --> 01:43:13,760
So in this case, David and Helen
have to prove the truth
1508
01:43:14,160 --> 01:43:18,160
of everything that's in the leaflet
that McDonald's say they handed out,
1509
01:43:18,640 --> 01:43:22,400
or at least the truth of the matter
that they commented on.
1510
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:25,600
And that's extremely difficult,
1511
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:29,600
particularly
since they're not allowed to say
1512
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:33,120
we read this somewhere else
and we genuinely believed it to be true.
1513
01:43:33,560 --> 01:43:38,160
And it is curious
that libel law is stricter
1514
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:40,120
than personal injury law.
1515
01:43:40,120 --> 01:43:42,240
If I run someone over with my car,
1516
01:43:42,240 --> 01:43:44,920
I'm entitled to say
I exercise reasonable care.
1517
01:43:44,920 --> 01:43:48,960
If I libel someone, I'm not entitled
to say I exercised reasonable care.
1518
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:50,720
I've got to prove the truth.
1519
01:43:50,720 --> 01:43:54,120
So that's a real problem
for Dave and Helen in this case.
1520
01:43:55,080 --> 01:43:55,480
David.
1521
01:43:55,480 --> 01:44:00,080
Helen have to prove the truth
of all the allegations in the leaflet
1522
01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:05,680
that McDonald's say they handed out
McDonald's can sit back knowing the truth
1523
01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:09,120
of all those allegations
and prove nothing.
1524
01:44:09,480 --> 01:44:13,880
And the burden is therefore totally on
the two individuals
1525
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:17,040
who don't have the money or resources
to actually establish
1526
01:44:17,040 --> 01:44:20,040
what the court's asking them to establish.
1527
01:44:20,520 --> 01:44:23,520
Is that right?
1528
01:44:39,240 --> 01:44:42,840
The libel laws
in England Wales are notoriously
1529
01:44:42,920 --> 01:44:46,880
anti free speech because of the burdens
1530
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:50,440
they put on defendants
to prove so much of the case.
1531
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:54,920
And it's for that reason that many,
many people choose to sue
1532
01:44:54,920 --> 01:44:57,920
in London rather than suing in their own
jurisdiction.
1533
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:03,280
So a leaflet or a program is broadcast
in several countries.
1534
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:07,880
Most people will choose London
as the place for the litigation
1535
01:45:08,120 --> 01:45:13,480
because the libel laws are so in favor
of those that say they've been defamed
1536
01:45:13,480 --> 01:45:17,040
and so against those that are exercising
their rights of free speech,
1537
01:45:18,560 --> 01:45:21,560
the right
1538
01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:28,760
who did this thing.
1539
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:32,480
So the High Court found
1540
01:45:33,200 --> 01:45:36,040
a number of issues in McDonnell's favor.
1541
01:45:36,040 --> 01:45:40,440
That doesn't mean that the true
1542
01:45:40,440 --> 01:45:43,440
I what MacDonald's were complaining about
is true.
1543
01:45:43,680 --> 01:45:45,480
It mainly means that Dave and Helen
1544
01:45:45,480 --> 01:45:49,360
were unable to establish
what they started again.
1545
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:50,400
Yeah.
1546
01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:53,400
Reinforces.
1547
01:45:54,440 --> 01:45:54,720
Yeah.
1548
01:45:54,720 --> 01:45:56,960
Okay,
1549
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:58,720
so just kick off.
1550
01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:03,560
The High Court found a number of issues
in McDonnell's favor.
1551
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:07,280
That doesn't mean
that McDonald's had established
1552
01:46:07,720 --> 01:46:12,720
that those allegations were false
and defamatory.
1553
01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:16,360
It just means that Dave and Helen
were unable to discharge the burden
1554
01:46:16,360 --> 01:46:21,240
on them to prove
that what they were saying was true and.
1555
01:46:21,240 --> 01:46:24,720
Therefore, it's a pretty unsatisfactory
result for everybody.
1556
01:46:25,520 --> 01:46:30,480
As an exercise in establishing
the truth, the case proved nothing.
1557
01:46:31,040 --> 01:46:34,760
It didn't establish that what McDonald's
were complaining of was false
1558
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:36,520
because they never had to prove that.
1559
01:46:36,520 --> 01:46:40,960
All it established
was that two unemployed
1560
01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:42,560
people without resources
1561
01:46:42,560 --> 01:46:47,200
were unable to prove the truth
of some of the allegations complained of.
1562
01:46:47,200 --> 01:46:50,440
And we're no wiser
now as to where the truth
1563
01:46:50,440 --> 01:46:53,440
really than we were
at the beginning of the process.
1564
01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:56,440
But of course, David Helen did win
1565
01:46:56,440 --> 01:46:59,760
a number of issues
and that is phenomenal.
1566
01:46:59,840 --> 01:47:06,480
Very much against the odds
and demonstrates just how
1567
01:47:06,600 --> 01:47:09,920
well they defended themselves.
1568
01:47:10,360 --> 01:47:11,440
That's probably not the right word.
1569
01:47:12,880 --> 01:47:14,560
Dave and Helen, of course,
1570
01:47:14,560 --> 01:47:20,200
did win a number of issues in the case
and that is hugely significant
1571
01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:23,840
because
it was very much against the odds.
1572
01:47:23,840 --> 01:47:29,360
And it does show that despite
the resources and wealth of MacDonald's,
1573
01:47:29,760 --> 01:47:32,440
some of what they were suggesting
1574
01:47:32,440 --> 01:47:35,440
was defamatory was in fact true,
1575
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:37,680
right?
1576
01:47:37,680 --> 01:47:40,240
As far as I know, they haven't sued
anyone else in similar circumstances.
1577
01:47:40,240 --> 01:47:42,360
I think it's pretty unlikely they will do.
1578
01:47:42,360 --> 01:47:45,760
And they've acknowledged that it's
that it was a public relations disaster.
1579
01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:49,360
Yeah, they did a press release
when they got the new person
1580
01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:52,360
in post.
1581
01:47:53,000 --> 01:47:54,760
So far as I'm aware, McDonald's
1582
01:47:54,760 --> 01:48:00,200
haven't brought legal proceedings
against anyone for libel
1583
01:48:01,640 --> 01:48:05,800
the way that they did against
Dave and Helen since the case.
1584
01:48:05,800 --> 01:48:08,240
And I think it's pretty unlikely
that they will.
1585
01:48:08,240 --> 01:48:12,280
They have publicly acknowledged
that the case was a public
1586
01:48:12,280 --> 01:48:15,520
relations
disaster, which it undoubtedly was.
1587
01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:18,840
But it's very
1588
01:48:18,840 --> 01:48:21,840
important for that to be put in context.
1589
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:24,600
Before Dave and Helen
stood up to MacDonalds,
1590
01:48:24,600 --> 01:48:27,480
almost everybody that they threatened with
libel proceedings
1591
01:48:27,480 --> 01:48:31,160
caved in and withdrew whatever
they were saying about McDonald's.
1592
01:48:31,480 --> 01:48:35,040
The courage of Dave and Helen in fighting
their case will have inspired
1593
01:48:35,040 --> 01:48:38,760
other people to stand up
for what they believe to be true.
1594
01:48:38,760 --> 01:48:40,360
And that's obviously a good thing
1595
01:48:40,360 --> 01:48:43,360
in a democracy
that depends on freedom of speech.
1596
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:48,760
And the case
appears have altered McDonald's tactics.
1597
01:48:49,240 --> 01:48:52,240
Before the case against Dave and Helen,
1598
01:48:52,680 --> 01:48:56,480
almost everybody that they threatened
with libel proceedings caved in
1599
01:48:56,480 --> 01:49:00,040
and withdrew whatever McDonald's
were complaining about.
1600
01:49:00,480 --> 01:49:05,200
Since the case involving Dave and Helen,
I don't think McDonald's
1601
01:49:05,200 --> 01:49:09,840
has even threatened anybody with libel
proceedings in similar circumstances.
1602
01:49:10,280 --> 01:49:14,880
And they've publicly acknowledged that
the case was a public relations disaster.
1603
01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:18,200
And that's a good thing for free speech.
1604
01:49:18,200 --> 01:49:22,600
People will feel more confident
in criticizing McDonald's
1605
01:49:22,880 --> 01:49:26,200
in the knowledge that they won't
be visited with an expensive libel suit.
1606
01:49:28,440 --> 01:49:29,640
You can cut around with that.
1607
01:49:29,640 --> 01:49:32,000
That cuts.
1608
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:33,600
One of the
1609
01:49:33,600 --> 01:49:37,200
major aspects of the case
is that some of the issues that Dave
1610
01:49:37,200 --> 01:49:42,120
and Helen were raising, such as junk
food and advertising to children,
1611
01:49:42,480 --> 01:49:45,880
were not widely debated
ten, 15, 20 years ago.
1612
01:49:46,200 --> 01:49:47,880
But now they are mainstream.
1613
01:49:47,880 --> 01:49:51,320
And the profile
and the importance of those issues
1614
01:49:51,320 --> 01:49:54,960
has been noted and they are now
1615
01:49:54,960 --> 01:49:57,960
considered to be proper
public interest issues.
1616
01:49:57,960 --> 01:50:01,720
And the European Union
has recently taken action
1617
01:50:01,800 --> 01:50:05,360
to prevent
advertising junk food to children.
1618
01:50:05,360 --> 01:50:09,000
And that shows you just how mainstream
the issues have now become.
1619
01:50:09,400 --> 01:50:10,200
Is mainstream.
1620
01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:14,480
The word one of the important
aspects of the case is that
1621
01:50:14,480 --> 01:50:17,480
many of the issues were not widely debated
1622
01:50:17,480 --> 01:50:20,360
ten, 15 years ago, but they are now.
1623
01:50:20,360 --> 01:50:23,160
An example is junk food.
1624
01:50:23,160 --> 01:50:27,360
That's a major public interest issue
these days.
1625
01:50:27,760 --> 01:50:31,680
The profiles being raised by such as Dave
and Helen.
1626
01:50:32,040 --> 01:50:35,920
And it's notable that the EU
is now beginning to take notice
1627
01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:40,520
and take action and is threatening
that it may even contemplate legislation
1628
01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:44,280
to deal with
advertising of junk food to children
1629
01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:47,520
if the industry doesn't regulate itself
in the near future.
1630
01:50:48,160 --> 01:50:52,760
David Helen And now taking their case
to the European Court of Human Rights,
1631
01:50:52,760 --> 01:50:55,760
which is the most important court
in the whole of Europe,
1632
01:50:56,200 --> 01:50:59,480
and will seek to argue that UK
1633
01:50:59,480 --> 01:51:03,360
law is in breach of the European
Convention of Human Rights.
1634
01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:04,960
So the stakes could not be higher.
1635
01:51:06,200 --> 01:51:08,480
Ironically,
1636
01:51:08,480 --> 01:51:12,120
this
stage, Dave and Helen, have been granted
1637
01:51:12,160 --> 01:51:16,120
legal aid not by the British government
1638
01:51:16,120 --> 01:51:20,280
but by the European Court itself
in Strasbourg,
1639
01:51:20,280 --> 01:51:24,320
which has looked at their case
and decided that they should be assisted
1640
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:27,960
by lawyers
and therefore they have a team of lawyers
1641
01:51:28,320 --> 01:51:31,600
to assist them with their case
before that court.
1642
01:51:32,520 --> 01:51:35,640
The issues before the European Court
1643
01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:39,320
are huge in the first place.
1644
01:51:39,640 --> 01:51:43,800
The lack of legal aid for anybody
without money to defend themselves
1645
01:51:44,200 --> 01:51:48,840
against multinationals
who bring libel proceedings against them.
1646
01:51:49,360 --> 01:51:53,480
And secondly,
the the unfair burden on defendants
1647
01:51:53,760 --> 01:51:56,600
to prove the truth
of everything that may be in a leaflet
1648
01:51:56,600 --> 01:52:00,240
or a campaigning document
that they associate themselves with
1649
01:52:02,480 --> 01:52:02,920
that, too.
1650
01:52:02,920 --> 01:52:03,840
That's not clear enough.
1651
01:52:03,840 --> 01:52:05,560
There are a number
of very important issues
1652
01:52:05,560 --> 01:52:08,560
that the European Court
is going to have to consider.
1653
01:52:08,760 --> 01:52:13,560
In summary, there's the whole reason
for no legal right.
1654
01:52:13,600 --> 01:52:16,600
Let me start again
1655
01:52:16,680 --> 01:52:18,520
on first.
1656
01:52:18,520 --> 01:52:20,520
Yeah,
1657
01:52:20,520 --> 01:52:24,120
there are a number really important issues
that the European Court is going to
1658
01:52:24,120 --> 01:52:27,600
have to decide the first,
1659
01:52:27,600 --> 01:52:31,480
and it goes to the heart of libel law in
this country
1660
01:52:31,760 --> 01:52:36,120
is whether it's unfair to have a system
where one side is rich
1661
01:52:36,120 --> 01:52:40,160
and the other side is poor
and no, nothing is done to assist
1662
01:52:40,480 --> 01:52:43,400
the party that has no money.
1663
01:52:43,400 --> 01:52:46,040
So that's a huge issue
that they'll have to decide.
1664
01:52:46,040 --> 01:52:49,080
And secondly, and equally important,
1665
01:52:49,320 --> 01:52:55,320
whether whole of the libel law in
this country is unfair
1666
01:52:55,560 --> 01:53:00,640
because it requires far too much of a
defendant in proving so much of the case
1667
01:53:01,080 --> 01:53:04,080
rather than the claimant
to prove anything.
1668
01:53:04,200 --> 01:53:05,280
That's probably not clear enough, is it?
1669
01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:08,640
let me let me start again.
1670
01:53:08,640 --> 01:53:11,600
You can just think how to fundamentally
unfair two respects.
1671
01:53:11,600 --> 01:53:17,640
First, no legal aid to because yeah,
the European Court is going to have to
1672
01:53:17,640 --> 01:53:23,160
consider a number of fundamental issues
about English libel law,
1673
01:53:23,800 --> 01:53:27,240
both the issues
1674
01:53:29,280 --> 01:53:31,520
the European Court
is going to have to decide
1675
01:53:31,520 --> 01:53:35,400
some really important issues
about English libel law.
1676
01:53:35,760 --> 01:53:39,240
I think whether it's unfair
to have a system
1677
01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:42,560
which allows one party to be rich
and have lots of resources
1678
01:53:42,560 --> 01:53:46,600
and the other two have absolutely nothing
and no legal aid to assist them.
1679
01:53:46,600 --> 01:53:49,600
It's the only area of the law
where there's no legal aid.
1680
01:53:49,720 --> 01:53:53,520
And also on unfairness
is the whole question
1681
01:53:53,880 --> 01:53:58,360
of whether it's reasonable to expect
defendants to prove so much of their case,
1682
01:53:58,920 --> 01:54:02,400
particularly
when they're facing a multinational
1683
01:54:02,800 --> 01:54:06,240
and included within that is the question
1684
01:54:06,240 --> 01:54:09,360
of whether it's appropriate
for multinationals with their resources
1685
01:54:09,720 --> 01:54:13,200
to be able to bring libel proceedings
when they are
1686
01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:16,280
not accountable to the public
in any way.
1687
01:54:16,800 --> 01:54:17,520
The European
1688
01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:21,360
court is going to have to decide
some really important issues in this case.
1689
01:54:21,680 --> 01:54:26,960
First, whether it was fair
to have a trial for so long
1690
01:54:27,320 --> 01:54:30,480
in which one side had so many resources
1691
01:54:30,960 --> 01:54:35,400
and Dave and Helen on the other
had no money, no lawyers and no back up.
1692
01:54:35,800 --> 01:54:38,800
So that's fundamental
for the European Court.
1693
01:54:39,080 --> 01:54:44,520
Secondly, whether in those circumstances
it was fair to expect
1694
01:54:44,520 --> 01:54:47,600
Dave and Helen to prove all of the case,
1695
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:50,960
I'd expect McDonald's to prove nothing.
1696
01:54:50,960 --> 01:54:54,760
So they're issues that
go right to the heart of libel law.
1697
01:54:54,960 --> 01:54:55,680
This country.
1698
01:54:58,480 --> 01:54:59,520
Included
1699
01:54:59,520 --> 01:55:03,240
in the issues for the European Court
is whether it's appropriate
1700
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:06,680
for multinationals
to be able to sue for libel at all.
1701
01:55:06,960 --> 01:55:11,480
Government departments can't local
authorities can't sue for libel.
1702
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:15,720
But many multinationals
have far more power
1703
01:55:15,720 --> 01:55:18,760
and wealth
than central or local government.
1704
01:55:19,120 --> 01:55:22,160
And so the question is
whether they ought to be able
1705
01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:25,320
to sue for libel
a bit long completed, isn't it?
1706
01:55:26,160 --> 01:55:29,080
It's long been recognized
that it would be
1707
01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:32,280
wrong for central and local government
1708
01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:36,400
to be able to see for libel because it
it restricts free speech.
1709
01:55:37,000 --> 01:55:39,960
And we're questioning
before the European Court
1710
01:55:39,960 --> 01:55:43,280
whether that rule
should be extended to multinationals.
1711
01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:48,000
They're in a very much more powerful
position than many local authorities.
1712
01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:49,800
And it inhibits free speech.
1713
01:55:49,800 --> 01:55:51,080
If they can't be criticized
1714
01:55:52,240 --> 01:55:53,640
for that,
1715
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:56,640
it's a bit better,
1716
01:56:51,160 --> 01:56:54,240
said as well.
1717
01:57:02,520 --> 01:57:04,200
Can you take us around the blocks
1718
01:57:04,200 --> 01:57:07,680
for about 10 minutes
so she can film in the back of a cab? But.
1719
01:57:07,760 --> 01:57:10,160
All right. All right. You Sandra.
1720
01:57:10,160 --> 01:57:10,600
okay.
1721
01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:13,600
Thanks.
1722
01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:18,400
I've been working on a number of human
1723
01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:21,400
rights issues in the
1724
01:57:22,400 --> 01:57:25,720
many involving protesters,
but also doing a lot of work
1725
01:57:25,720 --> 01:57:29,560
with death penalty
people in the Caribbean.
1726
01:57:29,640 --> 01:57:33,600
So developing strategy
for challenging the death penalty.
1727
01:57:34,000 --> 01:57:38,800
As a result of some of that work,
I was made a QC in 2002.
1728
01:57:39,040 --> 01:57:41,600
You wanted that interview.
1729
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:42,600
Anything else?
1730
01:57:42,600 --> 01:57:45,600
Yeah, a little.
1731
01:57:46,560 --> 01:57:47,600
I've been doing
1732
01:57:47,600 --> 01:57:50,720
a lot of cases that have interested me
1733
01:57:51,200 --> 01:57:55,160
since Damien Helen's case
was in the courts over here,
1734
01:57:55,880 --> 01:57:58,880
a lot of work on human rights,
and I wrote a book called
1735
01:58:00,240 --> 01:58:00,760
the European
1736
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:05,120
Convention, which I let me start
and I hated it.
1737
01:58:05,280 --> 01:58:06,840
This is less than okay.
1738
01:58:06,840 --> 01:58:07,880
I know what you've been up to.
1739
01:58:07,880 --> 01:58:10,080
You can see it's just of that.
1740
01:58:10,080 --> 01:58:10,800
I was doing a number
1741
01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:14,360
of interesting things since David
and Helen's case was in the courts
1742
01:58:14,720 --> 01:58:18,360
over here, lots of them
involving human rights and protest,
1743
01:58:18,720 --> 01:58:23,320
but most specifically really doing death
row work in the Caribbean.
1744
01:58:24,000 --> 01:58:25,000
I'm trying to.
1745
01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:27,600
Towards the abolition
of the death penalty.
1746
01:58:27,600 --> 01:58:30,080
There you have. You have.
1747
01:58:30,080 --> 01:58:33,320
Well,
1748
01:58:34,040 --> 01:58:38,800
we've managed to
get rid of the mandatory death penalty in
1749
01:58:38,800 --> 01:58:42,760
a number of countries in the Caribbean,
which has been tremendous.
1750
01:58:43,800 --> 01:58:45,320
Does that mean you've actually said
people's lives?
1751
01:58:45,320 --> 01:58:47,560
And to think, well, that sounds a
1752
01:58:48,960 --> 01:58:51,960
bit cheesy.
1753
01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:57,600
I mean, the
1754
01:58:59,080 --> 01:58:59,640
the effects
1755
01:58:59,640 --> 01:59:04,640
of some of the cases in the Caribbean
have been profound, both obviously on the
1756
01:59:05,160 --> 01:59:08,920
individuals concerned
who who haven't been hung up
1757
01:59:08,960 --> 01:59:13,040
and also on the work we've been able
to do with the lawyers over there.
1758
01:59:13,040 --> 01:59:16,040
We've got a very good team of lawyers
throughout the Caribbean now
1759
01:59:16,320 --> 01:59:18,160
that we've worked
with on some of these issues.
1760
01:59:18,160 --> 01:59:21,160
So it's been a very uplifting experience.
1761
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:22,800
All right.
1762
01:59:22,800 --> 01:59:24,840
That's all right. Yeah, not too cheesy.
1763
01:59:24,840 --> 01:59:27,840
That's a good Dave.
1764
01:59:28,320 --> 01:59:30,800
And Helen's case has always been
1765
01:59:30,800 --> 01:59:34,200
very important to me
from when I first met them
1766
01:59:34,200 --> 01:59:38,680
and working with them
through the difficult days of the trial.
1767
01:59:39,040 --> 01:59:42,880
And it's extremely important
1768
01:59:43,560 --> 01:59:45,720
that it's gone
all the way to the European Court of,
1769
01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:49,920
human rights, and it'll be one of the most
important decisions that court makes.
1770
01:59:49,920 --> 01:59:52,560
It will be a landmark, for that matter.
1771
01:59:52,560 --> 01:59:53,360
And for me,
1772
01:59:54,880 --> 01:59:57,240
there really
1773
01:59:57,240 --> 02:00:00,600
two main issues that we're going
to concentrate on at the hearing
1774
02:00:00,600 --> 02:00:01,480
in Strasbourg.
1775
02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:04,800
The first is the obvious unfairness
1776
02:00:05,320 --> 02:00:08,320
of criminal.
1777
02:00:13,320 --> 02:00:14,320
There are
1778
02:00:14,320 --> 02:00:17,320
two real issues that we're going
to concentrate on in Strasbourg.
1779
02:00:17,600 --> 02:00:22,000
The first is the obvious
unfairness of a system that allows
1780
02:00:22,000 --> 02:00:25,560
one party to have huge amounts
of resources and lawyers,
1781
02:00:26,080 --> 02:00:28,360
and the other two have none
without any legal.
1782
02:00:28,360 --> 02:00:33,840
And the other is
whether or not it's fair to expect
1783
02:00:33,920 --> 02:00:39,000
those without any money or resources
to prove the truth of everything that.
1784
02:00:39,000 --> 02:00:42,000
They're alleged to have said or done.
1785
02:00:42,440 --> 02:00:44,480
But one of the most important things
1786
02:00:44,480 --> 02:00:48,920
to appreciate about
this aspect of the case is that it's only
1787
02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:52,040
for libel proceedings
that you can't get legal aid.
1788
02:00:52,040 --> 02:00:56,880
So in every other kind of legal case,
if there is an imbalance
1789
02:00:56,880 --> 02:01:00,640
between the parties
and there are very often will be legal aid
1790
02:01:00,640 --> 02:01:03,840
is there to achieve the balance
that's required for justice
1791
02:01:04,400 --> 02:01:07,120
in this important area of free speech.
1792
02:01:07,120 --> 02:01:09,520
There is no such thing.
1793
02:01:09,520 --> 02:01:12,080
There is no legal aid.
It's completely arbitrary.
1794
02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:15,560
And that's one of the major
things we're going to be arguing.
1795
02:01:17,720 --> 02:01:18,640
When you have a
1796
02:01:18,640 --> 02:01:23,560
legal system that doesn't operate fairly
because there's a huge imbalance
1797
02:01:23,560 --> 02:01:26,800
between the parties, justice
could never be achieved,
1798
02:01:27,520 --> 02:01:32,040
however hard the individual judge tries
in any particular case.
1799
02:01:32,280 --> 02:01:35,760
And that's
why the proceedings in Strasbourg
1800
02:01:35,760 --> 02:01:39,960
are a challenge, really the system,
rather than a challenge to the decision
1801
02:01:39,960 --> 02:01:42,960
of the individual judge in the High Court.
1802
02:02:01,960 --> 02:02:04,320
When you have a huge inequality
1803
02:02:04,320 --> 02:02:07,840
between the parties to a dispute in court,
1804
02:02:08,520 --> 02:02:12,040
you will never achieve a just result,
however hard
1805
02:02:12,480 --> 02:02:15,480
the judge tries in a particular case
1806
02:02:15,480 --> 02:02:19,040
and that that the verdict is meaningless.
1807
02:02:19,800 --> 02:02:22,560
It doesn't really represent
1808
02:02:22,560 --> 02:02:25,840
the truth and it's unsatisfactory.
1809
02:02:25,960 --> 02:02:28,960
Everybody,
1810
02:02:31,200 --> 02:02:32,600
to understand what that was.
1811
02:02:32,600 --> 02:02:35,600
That's right.
1812
02:02:38,720 --> 02:02:40,440
I think our arguments
1813
02:02:40,440 --> 02:02:44,400
are very strong in terms of unfairness,
1814
02:02:44,720 --> 02:02:47,400
and most people think
1815
02:02:47,400 --> 02:02:52,040
the case was obviously unfair
and therefore we ought to wait
1816
02:02:52,560 --> 02:02:57,240
because of the huge implications
for the British government.
1817
02:02:57,240 --> 02:03:01,000
If we do it, things may be a little more
finely balanced,
1818
02:03:01,320 --> 02:03:04,920
but we're confident that our
arguments support to where
1819
02:03:07,200 --> 02:03:10,760
if we win
in Strasbourg, the government will have to
1820
02:03:10,840 --> 02:03:15,160
think about changing the law of libel.
1821
02:03:15,400 --> 02:03:20,640
One respect of legal aid,
but also much more fundamentally in terms
1822
02:03:20,640 --> 02:03:23,640
of let me start again.
1823
02:03:26,000 --> 02:03:29,120
If we succeed before the European courts,
1824
02:03:29,120 --> 02:03:32,000
the government is then under an obligation
to react to that judgment
1825
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:35,000
and to change the law
if it needs changing.
1826
02:03:35,200 --> 02:03:40,720
And therefore, they will have to think
about legal aid in likable proceedings
1827
02:03:41,040 --> 02:03:44,240
and they'll have to think about
how to make libel fairer
1828
02:03:44,520 --> 02:03:47,520
so that they don't inhibit free speech.
1829
02:03:48,240 --> 02:03:50,480
It it's important to appreciate that
1830
02:03:50,480 --> 02:03:54,680
if the European Court finds that
1831
02:03:54,680 --> 02:03:58,960
David Haaland's trial was unfair,
the government can't ignore that judgment.
1832
02:03:59,040 --> 02:04:02,520
It's got to do something about it
and it must
1833
02:04:02,520 --> 02:04:05,520
therefore
think about changing the law itself
1834
02:04:05,720 --> 02:04:09,240
to put right whatever the European Court
has said, cause the problem.
1835
02:04:11,560 --> 02:04:13,320
If David Hulme win in
1836
02:04:13,320 --> 02:04:17,760
Strasbourg
and the government is forced to respond
1837
02:04:17,760 --> 02:04:20,840
by changing the law,
that would be a major victory
1838
02:04:20,840 --> 02:04:23,640
not only for David Heller,
but for everybody that's argued
1839
02:04:23,640 --> 02:04:27,800
for many years that the libel laws
inhibit free speech.
1840
02:04:28,120 --> 02:04:30,760
It be tremendous vindication.
1841
02:04:30,760 --> 02:04:35,120
50 years of legal Struggle
by David Heller.
1842
02:04:36,880 --> 02:04:39,880
And what will it mean for
freedom of speech
1843
02:04:40,480 --> 02:04:43,480
campaigning and what
1844
02:04:45,960 --> 02:04:47,040
It will be
1845
02:04:47,040 --> 02:04:51,440
a tremendous boost for free speech
because it will remove
1846
02:04:51,720 --> 02:04:55,600
some of the basic unfairness
in libel law.
1847
02:04:55,920 --> 02:05:00,000
And that is obviously to be welcomed.
1848
02:05:00,920 --> 02:05:02,680
Some of it would.
1849
02:05:02,680 --> 02:05:05,680
So I just
1850
02:05:09,880 --> 02:05:11,600
I think if we win
1851
02:05:11,600 --> 02:05:15,960
and the libel laws changed,
it will become different
1852
02:05:16,080 --> 02:05:20,640
and it will cease to be seen as a law
only for the rich and famous
1853
02:05:21,080 --> 02:05:24,720
and will become a law
which protects free speech
1854
02:05:24,880 --> 02:05:29,760
for everybody and in particular for those
that don't have wealth and power,
1855
02:05:31,200 --> 02:05:33,280
there will obviously be ramifications
1856
02:05:33,280 --> 02:05:36,680
for the public
1857
02:05:36,680 --> 02:05:39,680
debate of issues of real importance.
1858
02:05:39,920 --> 02:05:44,480
One feature of libel laws at
the moment is that debate is obvious.
1859
02:05:45,160 --> 02:05:48,160
Let me start again
1860
02:05:51,960 --> 02:05:54,960
unfair libel laws
1861
02:05:55,800 --> 02:05:59,560
have the effect of dampening debate
on important issues
1862
02:05:59,560 --> 02:06:00,960
because people are scared
1863
02:06:00,960 --> 02:06:03,960
that they're going to have proceedings
brought against them.
1864
02:06:04,320 --> 02:06:07,600
And even if they think they can prove
what they're saying is true,
1865
02:06:08,000 --> 02:06:11,000
they may not have the money
or the time to go to court.
1866
02:06:11,480 --> 02:06:14,480
And therefore unfair libel laws mean.
1867
02:06:14,480 --> 02:06:17,760
Some people won't say what they believe
genuinely to be true
1868
02:06:18,480 --> 02:06:21,840
and public debate suffers
in those circumstances.
1869
02:06:22,480 --> 02:06:27,720
If we win this case, I'm hopefully
that will change and that will be more
1870
02:06:27,720 --> 02:06:31,360
informed, better informed debate
about matters of real importance.
1871
02:06:31,360 --> 02:06:33,880
And that's got to be a good thing.
1872
02:06:33,880 --> 02:06:35,080
It's all right. It's really good.
1873
02:06:36,080 --> 02:06:39,360
Well, we're on our
way to the European Court of Human Rights.
1874
02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:42,360
At long last, we've exchanged
1875
02:06:42,840 --> 02:06:45,960
very full written submissions
with the government
1876
02:06:46,240 --> 02:06:50,040
and lodged numerous documents
with the Strasbourg court,
1877
02:06:50,040 --> 02:06:53,680
and we now have the chance
to make a presentation to the court
1878
02:06:53,920 --> 02:06:57,640
highlighting
the most important parts of our case.
1879
02:06:58,800 --> 02:07:00,960
It's important to appreciate
that even to get to
1880
02:07:00,960 --> 02:07:06,600
this stage is success
because the European Court will filter out
1881
02:07:06,600 --> 02:07:11,040
cases that things are hopeless
and which don't raise important issues.
1882
02:07:11,360 --> 02:07:15,720
So the very fact that we're in court
demonstrates that
1883
02:07:15,720 --> 02:07:20,000
we have a chance of success and that
the court thinks it's very important issue
1884
02:07:20,800 --> 02:07:23,800
the right
1885
02:07:24,480 --> 02:07:25,880
the government is arguing
1886
02:07:25,880 --> 02:07:28,880
that there's nothing wrong with a system
1887
02:07:28,880 --> 02:07:33,720
that allows one party to have sorry,
1888
02:07:38,680 --> 02:07:40,240
but the
1889
02:07:40,240 --> 02:07:43,520
Government's arguing that there's nothing
unfair about a system
1890
02:07:44,040 --> 02:07:49,200
where there is no legal for those
that can't afford to represent themselves.
1891
02:07:49,600 --> 02:07:53,760
That's an astonishing argument,
1892
02:07:53,760 --> 02:07:58,400
but it's one that they're very keen to win
because of the implications of losing.
1893
02:07:58,800 --> 02:08:02,200
They're also seeking to argue
that libel law
1894
02:08:02,400 --> 02:08:06,960
in England is perfectly fair
and there's nothing to worry about.
1895
02:08:07,320 --> 02:08:11,680
Again, we don't think that's
a particularly strong argument,
1896
02:08:12,920 --> 02:08:15,480
but it's been recognized
1897
02:08:15,480 --> 02:08:19,560
for a long time
that central and local government
1898
02:08:20,080 --> 02:08:23,600
shouldn't be allowed to sue for libel
because that inhibits free
1899
02:08:23,600 --> 02:08:26,880
speech and stops
people criticizing what they're doing.
1900
02:08:27,320 --> 02:08:31,440
And one of the points
we want to bring up in the European court
1901
02:08:31,440 --> 02:08:35,440
is that many multinationals, such as
McDonald's, have far more power and wealth
1902
02:08:35,800 --> 02:08:39,960
than local authorities, and they won't be
subject to the same rule.
1903
02:08:40,120 --> 02:08:44,040
They have the ability to
defend themselves without going to court
1904
02:08:44,400 --> 02:08:46,360
against two people with no money.
1905
02:08:49,080 --> 02:08:52,320
One of the other
points we want to raise with the court
1906
02:08:52,320 --> 02:08:56,320
is whether or not multinationals
should be allowed to sue for libel at all.
1907
02:08:56,960 --> 02:09:00,720
It's long been recognized
that governments, for example,
1908
02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:04,920
shouldn't be allowed to sue for libel
because it inhibits free speech.
1909
02:09:04,920 --> 02:09:08,160
It stops people criticizing them,
and that's not thought to be a good thing.
1910
02:09:08,880 --> 02:09:12,720
And multinationals
such as McDonald's very often
1911
02:09:12,720 --> 02:09:16,200
have far more power and wealth
than many small countries.
1912
02:09:16,960 --> 02:09:20,320
And so the same rule
really ought to apply to them.
1913
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:25,440
They can get their message across through
the television, through other media
1914
02:09:25,440 --> 02:09:29,080
and through advertising,
and they don't need to go to court
1915
02:09:29,320 --> 02:09:33,200
through ancient and unfair
libel proceedings.
1916
02:09:34,280 --> 02:09:37,280
It's about
1917
02:09:37,480 --> 02:09:39,400
I'll just jump on and yeah,
1918
02:09:42,640 --> 02:09:44,400
McDonald's
1919
02:09:44,400 --> 02:09:48,640
could never have dreamt
when they decided to bring proceedings
1920
02:09:48,880 --> 02:09:54,040
against, protesters
on a Saturday afternoon in North London
1921
02:09:54,600 --> 02:09:57,600
that they were going to end up
15 years later
1922
02:09:57,640 --> 02:09:59,680
with a case
in the European Court of Human Rights.
1923
02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:02,960
The most important and influential court
in the whole of Europe
1924
02:10:03,240 --> 02:10:06,760
with a major challenge
to the entire libel laws
1925
02:10:07,000 --> 02:10:10,680
and 15 years of adverse
publicity for McDonald's.
1926
02:10:10,920 --> 02:10:14,440
So the case is very curious
1927
02:10:14,440 --> 02:10:17,440
and very important in that respect.
1928
02:10:18,240 --> 02:10:20,880
When I first met David Hallam,
1929
02:10:20,880 --> 02:10:24,440
we had to discuss whether it was sensible
1930
02:10:24,440 --> 02:10:28,320
to even enter a defense in this case
because it was going to be so difficult
1931
02:10:28,760 --> 02:10:31,920
and they decided
1932
02:10:32,240 --> 02:10:36,600
that they would defend,
that they would stand for free speech.
1933
02:10:36,600 --> 02:10:43,040
And it's a tremendous tribute to that,
that they've managed what they've managed
1934
02:10:43,040 --> 02:10:47,120
to achieve in the last 15 years,
and they're now on the point
1935
02:10:47,120 --> 02:10:53,280
of challenging the UK government
for the maintenance of unfair
1936
02:10:53,280 --> 02:10:57,480
libel laws in one of the most important
courts in the world.
1937
02:10:59,200 --> 02:11:00,480
One of the
1938
02:11:00,480 --> 02:11:06,080
things this case demonstrates
is just how powerful you can be
1939
02:11:06,080 --> 02:11:09,960
if you're an individual
that fundamentally believes
1940
02:11:09,960 --> 02:11:14,680
in what you're fighting for
and is committed to fighting to the end.
1941
02:11:15,480 --> 02:11:18,560
And that puts people
a very powerful position.
1942
02:11:19,320 --> 02:11:22,320
And that's really the position
that David Hallett around.
1943
02:11:22,840 --> 02:11:25,200
You'll have to mix around with that
as a long thing.
1944
02:11:25,200 --> 02:11:26,280
It doesn't make much sense.
1945
02:11:26,280 --> 02:11:29,760
Do you think it's changed you at all
in this case, Do you think, blimey,
1946
02:11:36,320 --> 02:11:39,320
one of the ways in which this case is
1947
02:11:41,280 --> 02:11:42,160
affected me
1948
02:11:42,160 --> 02:11:45,560
is in the way
it's humbled me and other lawyers.
1949
02:11:45,840 --> 02:11:50,040
It shows that ordinary individuals
1950
02:11:50,640 --> 02:11:54,640
committed to their cause
can grapple with legal issues
1951
02:11:54,640 --> 02:11:59,120
that we pretend are very complicated
and can win against the odds.
1952
02:11:59,480 --> 02:12:02,240
So it's been very important to me
1953
02:12:02,240 --> 02:12:05,640
as an individual
and as a lawyer in that way.
1954
02:12:06,600 --> 02:12:07,560
As I write this,
1955
02:12:41,600 --> 02:12:44,600
he was.
1956
02:12:49,080 --> 02:12:50,400
I know, but just there's not many.
1957
02:12:50,400 --> 02:12:53,240
So wait until the bills face court.
1958
02:12:53,240 --> 02:12:55,720
I don't
1959
02:12:55,720 --> 02:12:58,680
know.
1960
02:12:58,680 --> 02:13:01,520
It's not a sort of
1961
02:13:01,520 --> 02:13:04,520
sit down, sit down, sit down
1962
02:13:21,960 --> 02:13:41,080
with John.
1963
02:13:41,520 --> 02:13:44,520
And he's
1964
02:13:47,080 --> 02:13:50,080
so where do
and what if you want to make this
1965
02:13:50,760 --> 02:13:53,760
about what
1966
02:13:55,000 --> 02:13:58,000
I just to speak to today.
1967
02:13:58,600 --> 02:14:01,600
Yeah.
1968
02:14:06,840 --> 02:14:09,720
Want to hear things like yeah.
1969
02:14:09,720 --> 02:14:12,720
I just don't know
1970
02:14:16,120 --> 02:14:19,120
the make kitchen
1971
02:14:19,920 --> 02:14:22,200
your best
1972
02:14:22,200 --> 02:14:24,720
thing I'm
1973
02:14:24,720 --> 02:14:28,480
one of those 20 you know we get impatient
1974
02:14:29,840 --> 02:14:32,840
well is a bit
1975
02:14:33,600 --> 02:14:36,600
yes it's
1976
02:14:51,440 --> 02:15:21,000
like yeah i00
1977
02:15:22,920 --> 02:15:41,000
yeah we speak
1978
02:15:47,880 --> 02:15:50,280
on Wednesday September 2000 with the court
1979
02:15:50,280 --> 02:15:54,600
under Article 34 of the convention
by the United Kingdom.
1980
02:15:54,600 --> 02:15:56,720
That's what I was telling Steve and Mr.
1981
02:15:56,720 --> 02:15:58,640
David Morris
1982
02:15:58,640 --> 02:16:01,080
delegation was allocated
to the fourth section
1983
02:16:01,080 --> 02:16:04,440
of the court persuading a group
to paragraph one of the rules.
1984
02:16:04,440 --> 02:16:05,000
Of course,
1985
02:16:06,360 --> 02:16:07,680
the application was deferred
1986
02:16:07,680 --> 02:16:10,680
admissible on 6th April 2004.
1987
02:16:11,680 --> 02:16:14,400
Go Governments are represented
by their attorney, Mr.
1988
02:16:14,400 --> 02:16:17,400
Derrick Walton, assisted by Mr.
1989
02:16:18,040 --> 02:16:19,440
Singh's counsel, Mr.
1990
02:16:19,440 --> 02:16:21,200
Alec Brown adviser. Mr.
1991
02:16:21,200 --> 02:16:23,560
David very adviser, and Mr.
1992
02:16:23,560 --> 02:16:26,480
Robert Wright adviser.
1993
02:16:26,480 --> 02:16:28,360
The applicants are represented by Mr.
1994
02:16:28,360 --> 02:16:30,800
Keir Starmer, leading counsel by Mr.
1995
02:16:30,800 --> 02:16:34,480
Mark Stevens, the acting as representative
assisted by Mr.
1996
02:16:34,480 --> 02:16:35,880
Anthony Hudson.
1997
02:16:35,880 --> 02:16:37,760
Junior Counselor Miscarriages are right.
1998
02:16:37,760 --> 02:16:40,840
Adviser The documents are also present.
1999
02:16:42,200 --> 02:16:45,680
I will jump to representative from
the application in the name of the Court.
2000
02:16:46,960 --> 02:16:49,440
Having consulted
the agent of the government
2001
02:16:49,440 --> 02:16:51,680
and the representative of the applicant,
2002
02:16:51,680 --> 02:16:54,680
I have determined
the order addresses as follows.
2003
02:16:55,360 --> 02:16:58,320
Mr. Starmer, for the applicants
will speak first and then Mr.
2004
02:16:58,320 --> 02:16:58,720
Walden.
2005
02:16:58,720 --> 02:17:00,520
For the Government I call Mr.
2006
02:17:00,520 --> 02:17:03,520
Keir Starmer.
2007
02:17:03,640 --> 02:17:05,240
Mr. President,
2008
02:17:05,240 --> 02:17:07,560
honorable Members for families.
2009
02:17:09,320 --> 02:17:10,480
This case is about
2010
02:17:10,480 --> 02:17:14,560
rights to people without having
2011
02:17:14,560 --> 02:17:18,280
to engage in a public campaign
or loss of public interest.
2012
02:17:18,320 --> 02:17:21,320
The move towards the campaigning
2013
02:17:21,720 --> 02:17:23,840
was a campaign to draw attention
2014
02:17:23,840 --> 02:17:26,920
to a number of other features
of the fast food industry.
2015
02:17:27,480 --> 02:17:31,120
It was a campaign
instigated by on of retail,
2016
02:17:31,680 --> 02:17:36,080
a small group of women who would campaign
2017
02:17:36,080 --> 02:17:39,080
principally
on environmental and social issues
2018
02:17:39,200 --> 02:17:42,520
and its global distribution
of a sixth page leaflet
2019
02:17:42,880 --> 02:17:45,960
who want done everything
2020
02:17:46,080 --> 02:17:49,040
they didn't want you to know.
2021
02:17:49,040 --> 02:17:53,160
The Liverpool Post
at the time was never really awareness
2022
02:17:53,400 --> 02:17:56,400
and concerned about issues
affecting the environment.
2023
02:17:56,680 --> 02:17:59,480
The relationship at the time was
2024
02:17:59,480 --> 02:18:02,480
that, well,
2025
02:18:03,280 --> 02:18:04,840
it was written in a campaign
2026
02:18:04,840 --> 02:18:08,800
to stop using humor or exaggerate.
2027
02:18:09,640 --> 02:18:12,640
It was out of interest of members
of the public
2028
02:18:12,720 --> 02:18:17,000
or limited to those who wrote about this
asking for something.
2029
02:18:17,920 --> 02:18:22,040
It was essentially a contribution
by competing activists
2030
02:18:22,440 --> 02:18:25,600
to participate
in the public interest groups.
2031
02:18:26,520 --> 02:18:28,680
Since neither Greenpeace
2032
02:18:28,680 --> 02:18:32,800
nor the Arctic is involved
campaigns and vocal power,
2033
02:18:32,800 --> 02:18:36,680
it was the only issue
that it really mattered.
2034
02:18:37,680 --> 02:18:38,360
It followed a
2035
02:18:38,360 --> 02:18:43,400
long tradition in, the UK and Europe,
of the expression of protest
2036
02:18:43,920 --> 02:18:46,920
through the to
2037
02:18:48,240 --> 02:18:51,240
the ground for two reasons.
2038
02:18:52,040 --> 02:18:54,200
First, it of the public interest,
2039
02:18:54,200 --> 02:18:57,760
at least labor for the environment
2040
02:18:58,400 --> 02:19:02,400
and on the accountability
law specifically. But
2041
02:19:03,560 --> 02:19:06,120
secondly, because it emphasized the fact
2042
02:19:06,120 --> 02:19:09,120
that the we were simply sowing pigs.
2043
02:19:09,240 --> 02:19:14,160
I'm disappointed that a Supreme Court
to take into account
2044
02:19:14,600 --> 02:19:17,600
in interpreting the convention
in this case,
2045
02:19:18,480 --> 02:19:21,000
the government accepts the principle
2046
02:19:21,000 --> 02:19:23,720
that the limits of acceptable criticism,
2047
02:19:23,720 --> 02:19:26,720
while excessive confidence,
2048
02:19:27,000 --> 02:19:30,640
a principle driver
in the decision to fire across the UK.
2049
02:19:31,440 --> 02:19:35,560
But they seem to argue that this principle
is not available to the armed forces
2050
02:19:35,880 --> 02:19:38,520
because. They are not
2051
02:19:38,520 --> 02:19:41,840
formally representing the public interest.
2052
02:19:42,360 --> 02:19:46,440
See paragraph $3.17 Official stations.
2053
02:19:46,560 --> 02:19:47,440
In this context,
2054
02:19:48,760 --> 02:19:49,520
the answer
2055
02:19:49,520 --> 02:19:52,520
to this is far too narrow approach
2056
02:19:53,280 --> 02:19:56,280
pluralism, which is the of law,
2057
02:19:56,400 --> 02:19:59,400
requires very much the opportunity
2058
02:19:59,520 --> 02:20:02,800
to engage with the officer talking to us,
2059
02:20:03,320 --> 02:20:06,320
whatever the status, what resources
2060
02:20:06,360 --> 02:20:09,360
whether that views are involved,
2061
02:20:10,840 --> 02:20:13,840
that are welcome to join in this common
debate
2062
02:20:14,120 --> 02:20:17,680
on these massive public information
about the players,
2063
02:20:18,720 --> 02:20:22,200
the McDonald's chose
instead to adopt a strategy
2064
02:20:22,720 --> 02:20:26,480
of identifying anyone responsible
for the Dogs campaign
2065
02:20:26,840 --> 02:20:29,840
so that they could go quiet proceedings
against it
2066
02:20:30,760 --> 02:20:32,560
tonight and in September.
2067
02:20:32,560 --> 02:20:35,360
Take advantage of McDonald's.
2068
02:20:35,360 --> 02:20:38,360
You can start to do your first inquiry
2069
02:20:38,640 --> 02:20:41,640
to infiltrate groups
2070
02:20:41,880 --> 02:20:45,280
as a result of some climate legislation
as intended, users
2071
02:20:45,680 --> 02:20:49,080
of groups posing as crisis
2072
02:20:50,200 --> 02:20:52,920
by rolling some investigations
2073
02:20:52,920 --> 02:20:57,560
that can help to provide the answer
because of what enthusiasm
2074
02:20:57,600 --> 02:21:02,600
or a genuine individuals attended
large groups meetings was going
2075
02:21:05,120 --> 02:21:06,640
on The caterers
2076
02:21:06,640 --> 02:21:10,400
activities of the private investigators
with the advice groups
2077
02:21:10,800 --> 02:21:13,800
include include distributed the very least
2078
02:21:14,200 --> 02:21:17,200
that McDonald's kept
2079
02:21:17,840 --> 02:21:19,680
what is private investigators
2080
02:21:19,680 --> 02:21:24,120
find out notes that the outcomes
2081
02:21:24,880 --> 02:21:27,120
were the authors of the that
2082
02:21:27,120 --> 02:21:29,800
that has never bit too much
2083
02:21:29,800 --> 02:21:32,440
for other private investigators found out
2084
02:21:32,440 --> 02:21:36,320
what was the outcome to participate
in the activities of the group.
2085
02:21:36,320 --> 02:21:39,320
This I shared this article those I was
2086
02:21:40,000 --> 02:21:43,600
the first time who do not in common
involved
2087
02:21:43,600 --> 02:21:49,760
in the activities of some previous
until 102 degree was found.
2088
02:21:49,760 --> 02:21:53,920
It turned out on a few occasions to
those were treated
2089
02:21:54,360 --> 02:21:57,840
that was attended of
in March of that year.
2090
02:21:58,320 --> 02:22:01,320
Which reason was available to anyone who
2091
02:22:01,560 --> 02:22:04,000
to put up
2092
02:22:04,000 --> 02:22:06,720
the second document only to discover
2093
02:22:06,720 --> 02:22:09,880
Greenpeace, for example, in the 1980s,
2094
02:22:10,680 --> 02:22:13,680
but was found participated
in the production of these leaflet
2095
02:22:14,000 --> 02:22:18,400
on the basis
of the very same box, and that,
2096
02:22:19,440 --> 02:22:19,680
you know,
2097
02:22:19,680 --> 02:22:22,680
the proceedings not related to
the partnership,
2098
02:22:23,400 --> 02:22:26,400
not content it's an error.
2099
02:22:26,440 --> 02:22:28,880
An error was directive by the
2100
02:22:28,880 --> 02:22:31,880
of the draft in the end
2101
02:22:31,920 --> 02:22:35,000
of the letter
without solicitor wrote to the court
2102
02:22:35,280 --> 02:22:38,920
in the light which was explained
the error was rejected.
2103
02:22:38,920 --> 02:22:42,200
This didn't whistleblowers in strict sense
2104
02:22:43,560 --> 02:22:45,600
despite the government's claim
2105
02:22:45,600 --> 02:22:49,760
of trying to assist the opportunities
to ensure fairness in their case,
2106
02:22:50,400 --> 02:22:54,880
neither he nor anyone else
alerts them to this outlandish issue
2107
02:22:55,680 --> 02:23:00,320
until the job was to defend
against the up performance point.
2108
02:23:01,200 --> 02:23:05,000
It is an essential part of
the text of that demonstration
2109
02:23:05,840 --> 02:23:08,160
that the experience of the lack of a legal
2110
02:23:08,160 --> 02:23:11,160
specialist,
2111
02:23:11,240 --> 02:23:15,360
the last letter to a number
of respondents in the case, it is
2112
02:23:17,520 --> 02:23:18,000
wrong.
2113
02:23:18,000 --> 02:23:21,600
Not that those rules McDonald's
2114
02:23:22,520 --> 02:23:26,560
proceedings against
that is a three arms for defamation
2115
02:23:27,160 --> 02:23:29,760
on the basis of their participation
in the of Douglas
2116
02:23:29,760 --> 02:23:33,080
County of the group is not
2117
02:23:33,160 --> 02:23:36,200
led to the lowest common
in English to history
2118
02:23:36,880 --> 02:23:39,960
in which the Americans
were in a huge political position
2119
02:23:40,440 --> 02:23:43,880
in defending themselves
because of two central features
2120
02:23:43,880 --> 02:23:46,880
of domestic
2121
02:23:47,680 --> 02:23:48,360
legal aid.
2122
02:23:48,360 --> 02:23:50,200
It's not letter at the time.
2123
02:23:50,200 --> 02:23:53,200
I don't see these whatever the demands,
2124
02:23:55,080 --> 02:23:57,680
the legal and legally
2125
02:23:57,680 --> 02:24:02,600
operating as a blanket prohibition
legal in defamation proceedings
2126
02:24:03,160 --> 02:24:06,160
without the assistance
2127
02:24:06,240 --> 02:24:09,400
for the Americans,
because all of these parties,
2128
02:24:10,680 --> 02:24:13,680
after the arms cases finished the planning
2129
02:24:14,040 --> 02:24:17,160
in England was lifted in April 2000.
2130
02:24:19,360 --> 02:24:22,520
The central feature that made government's
position deeply
2131
02:24:22,520 --> 02:24:26,120
difficult
in defending the suit against the top dogs
2132
02:24:26,560 --> 02:24:31,360
was that the domestic law of the nation
is weighed heavily against defendants.
2133
02:24:33,000 --> 02:24:35,400
If anyone was
2134
02:24:35,400 --> 02:24:38,520
responsible, even in the slightest
when provocative,
2135
02:24:39,600 --> 02:24:43,120
for example,
if they take part in campaign,
2136
02:24:44,080 --> 02:24:49,320
we should be in a position
to prove the true of each
2137
02:24:49,320 --> 02:24:53,400
and every single fact
contained within the publication
2138
02:24:54,120 --> 02:24:57,480
in creating a receptacle
which would comment on the population.
2139
02:24:57,680 --> 02:24:59,600
These tells
2140
02:24:59,600 --> 02:25:01,520
us this, sir,
2141
02:25:01,520 --> 02:25:04,720
in page three of the letter you see,
2142
02:25:05,320 --> 02:25:08,320
it is no offense to violence to prove
2143
02:25:08,680 --> 02:25:11,360
and the fact that you do not believe
2144
02:25:11,360 --> 02:25:14,360
the statement to be true
2145
02:25:14,400 --> 02:25:16,800
in respect of those pictures
2146
02:25:16,800 --> 02:25:19,800
that two families
2147
02:25:19,840 --> 02:25:23,120
each in isolation, establishes a bond
2148
02:25:23,800 --> 02:25:26,800
that is a right huge.
2149
02:25:27,600 --> 02:25:30,600
They provide an optional claim
2150
02:25:31,000 --> 02:25:33,600
to Article six in Article two
2151
02:25:33,600 --> 02:25:36,600
that should be read.
2152
02:25:37,560 --> 02:25:38,320
Yeah. Yeah.
2153
02:25:38,320 --> 02:25:43,400
Because first, the burden of proof
imposed by those people will
2154
02:25:44,640 --> 02:25:46,400
be the effect
2155
02:25:46,400 --> 02:25:50,240
of the burden of proof
in inhibiting freedom of expression,
2156
02:25:50,880 --> 02:25:54,160
freedom to the population
for their own property.
2157
02:25:54,160 --> 02:25:57,760
Be assess whether or not you determine
2158
02:25:58,200 --> 02:26:03,400
the second defense of proceedings
is concerned.
2159
02:26:04,160 --> 02:26:07,040
The absence of other services
2160
02:26:07,040 --> 02:26:10,040
you cannot impose upon
2161
02:26:10,680 --> 02:26:12,680
the justice can be achieved
2162
02:26:12,680 --> 02:26:15,320
if the parties to a legal dispute
2163
02:26:15,320 --> 02:26:19,280
I to deserves a test of whose evidence
2164
02:26:19,560 --> 02:26:22,560
its circumstances are reasonable
because it is
2165
02:26:23,200 --> 02:26:25,200
not based upon a profound
2166
02:26:25,200 --> 02:26:28,200
respect for a number of reasons.
2167
02:26:28,320 --> 02:26:31,320
Each of the court verdicts.
2168
02:26:32,760 --> 02:26:34,080
It is convenient
2169
02:26:34,080 --> 02:26:37,080
to stop the stark realities
2170
02:26:37,960 --> 02:26:41,760
of the time, at least of the time of
these proceedings were issued
2171
02:26:42,080 --> 02:26:47,040
against the articles that were around
that was not based on dress rules.
2172
02:26:47,280 --> 02:26:49,120
In a total of 53 times
2173
02:26:50,360 --> 02:26:52,120
total sales amounted to
2174
02:26:52,120 --> 02:26:55,960
about 19.7 billion U.S.
2175
02:26:55,960 --> 02:26:57,600
dollars
2176
02:26:57,600 --> 02:26:59,920
by the end of the 1995.
2177
02:26:59,920 --> 02:27:02,320
One years, five years.
2178
02:27:02,320 --> 02:27:05,360
But there are about 18,400
2179
02:27:05,760 --> 02:27:08,760
restaurants in a total of 29
2180
02:27:09,120 --> 02:27:12,440
total sales,
but that amounted to 30 billion.
2181
02:27:12,440 --> 02:27:14,680
The dollars
2182
02:27:14,680 --> 02:27:17,120
McDonald's will release was
2183
02:27:17,120 --> 02:27:20,120
welcome to the appeal in this case,
not close.
2184
02:27:20,280 --> 02:27:23,760
A joint venture
that was with the Madison owners, but
2185
02:27:25,080 --> 02:27:26,920
nonetheless, nothing beyond that.
2186
02:27:26,920 --> 02:27:28,840
It was in that regard.
2187
02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:31,640
What was.
2188
02:27:31,640 --> 02:27:34,720
McDonald's, on the other hand,
were represented in all the statements
2189
02:27:35,240 --> 02:27:39,400
by Queen's Counsel and Counsel
specializing in not
2190
02:27:40,440 --> 02:27:43,920
supporting by two solicitor's office
in England.
2191
02:27:45,120 --> 02:27:47,040
In addition, the legal team
2192
02:27:47,040 --> 02:27:50,040
don't have access
2193
02:27:51,000 --> 02:27:54,000
to influence for all of these reasons,
2194
02:27:55,560 --> 02:27:57,840
for the duration of the time we are
2195
02:27:57,840 --> 02:28:01,400
told to do
was to keep gather as it were, continues
2196
02:28:02,960 --> 02:28:05,760
to be stopped after the,
2197
02:28:05,760 --> 02:28:08,240
you know,
2198
02:28:08,240 --> 02:28:11,240
that's the length of time
2199
02:28:11,640 --> 02:28:14,640
here, a period, two years of six months
2200
02:28:15,120 --> 02:28:17,760
time is the longest ever trial in U.S.
2201
02:28:17,760 --> 02:28:20,760
history either criminal, civil,
2202
02:28:21,720 --> 02:28:25,360
impaneled, nine years, six months,
2203
02:28:26,600 --> 02:28:28,640
a Hutton such
2204
02:28:28,640 --> 02:28:29,840
trial.
2205
02:28:29,840 --> 02:28:32,840
So many of the witness statements
related to the still
2206
02:28:33,080 --> 02:28:36,120
are the whole part 40,000
2207
02:28:36,240 --> 02:32:00,800
and as a consequence of 23
2208
02:32:01,560 --> 02:32:04,560
because it got the right
not to just walking
2209
02:36:44,840 --> 02:36:48,360
into expensive
2210
02:36:57,360 --> 02:37:06,160
and to make the wider
2211
02:37:06,160 --> 02:37:09,160
public interest open because the client
2212
02:37:09,480 --> 02:37:11,440
because
2213
02:37:11,440 --> 02:37:13,480
this is generally
2214
02:37:13,480 --> 02:37:16,480
most sensitive customer,
2215
02:37:20,080 --> 02:37:23,280
is therefore money is not the resource.
2216
02:37:23,280 --> 02:37:26,280
The scarcity of resources is a false point
from sales.
2217
02:37:37,320 --> 02:37:40,440
That right The group of people
who make this decision.
2218
02:37:40,440 --> 02:37:44,760
There are six of them
they deal with today within the global
2219
02:37:47,240 --> 02:37:48,600
haven.
2220
02:37:48,600 --> 02:37:52,640
Now perhaps
it's just because they don't associate.
2221
02:37:52,680 --> 02:37:55,040
So it's not how he said.
2222
02:37:55,040 --> 02:37:57,920
He just most successful themselves.
2223
02:37:57,920 --> 02:38:00,920
So I'm typically through then for that to
2224
02:38:01,800 --> 02:38:04,800
then produce another lethal
2225
02:38:18,480 --> 02:38:24,960
to serve five
2226
02:39:11,480 --> 02:39:19,680
that is
2227
02:39:23,120 --> 02:39:26,440
just of the same as
2228
02:39:30,560 --> 02:39:33,560
yeah yeah
2229
02:39:34,080 --> 02:39:37,080
so I don't know
2230
02:39:37,680 --> 02:39:39,360
who that was nice is great.
2231
02:39:39,360 --> 02:39:40,120
I hope the government's
2232
02:39:40,120 --> 02:39:44,360
I'm totally on the defensive certainly on,
on the lack of legal aid which they now
2233
02:39:44,360 --> 02:39:47,960
reckon I should be available in defamation
cases in exceptional circumstances.
2234
02:39:48,440 --> 02:39:51,360
This case is clearly exceptional
circumstances.
2235
02:39:51,360 --> 02:39:52,400
The longest case in history.
2236
02:39:52,400 --> 02:39:55,720
It's three times longer
than any previous libel case in the UK.
2237
02:39:55,720 --> 02:39:57,960
So that so that's on that point.
2238
02:39:57,960 --> 02:39:58,800
On the other point
2239
02:39:58,800 --> 02:40:01,800
about freedom of expression,
if it becomes possession, is ridiculous
2240
02:40:02,120 --> 02:40:07,240
that every single member of the public
wants to raise legitimate criticisms
2241
02:40:07,680 --> 02:40:11,640
about matters of public importance, has
to do all the primary research themselves
2242
02:40:11,640 --> 02:40:15,240
and be prepared to fight a court case
just for the right to say those points.
2243
02:40:15,560 --> 02:40:18,240
So I think the government
have got no case,
2244
02:40:18,240 --> 02:40:20,520
and if there was any justice,
we're bound to win.
2245
02:40:20,520 --> 02:40:22,080
But whether we do is not a question
2246
02:40:22,080 --> 02:40:25,960
for the government says why should
the taxpayers have to pay in their terms
2247
02:40:25,960 --> 02:40:28,960
up to 10 million a year to defend this
case?
2248
02:40:29,400 --> 02:40:32,080
We're not asking
we weren't asking the government.
2249
02:40:32,080 --> 02:40:34,000
We were asking for anyone to pay
£10 million.
2250
02:40:34,000 --> 02:40:35,040
That's what McDonnell spent,
2251
02:40:35,040 --> 02:40:38,840
obviously trying to get the best justice
for money to buy.
2252
02:40:39,160 --> 02:40:44,160
We're just asking that the rights
for campaigners and members of the public
2253
02:40:44,520 --> 02:40:48,960
to air criticisms on issues of public
importance are protected.
2254
02:40:49,400 --> 02:40:52,480
And the fact is that
the current state of the UK libel laws is
2255
02:40:52,840 --> 02:40:54,200
they just don't do that.
2256
02:40:54,200 --> 02:40:59,960
Yeah, I mean the laws are very x
extremely complicated and there's always,
2257
02:40:59,960 --> 02:41:03,240
you know, there's a threat of a long term
capital case.
2258
02:41:03,840 --> 02:41:07,200
You know, that's the money
that the witnesses to court to do.
2259
02:41:07,200 --> 02:41:11,560
Photocopying and administration
travel costs everything.
2260
02:41:11,560 --> 02:41:12,840
If you've got no money,
2261
02:41:12,840 --> 02:41:15,840
basically you are denied the right
to freedom of expression.
2262
02:41:15,880 --> 02:41:20,000
So there must be legal aid for people
if there's going to be protection
2263
02:41:20,000 --> 02:41:21,120
of the rights of the public in
2264
02:41:22,080 --> 02:41:23,040
the UK.
2265
02:41:23,040 --> 02:41:24,400
New cases to condemn the.
2266
02:41:24,400 --> 02:41:27,400
What are you expecting new trial and what
2267
02:41:28,200 --> 02:41:28,800
you want to go through?
2268
02:41:28,800 --> 02:41:30,960
Back as far as we're concerned, actually,
2269
02:41:30,960 --> 02:41:35,040
we've already won the trial
that that's first of all.
2270
02:41:35,040 --> 02:41:39,080
MacDonald brought the case
to suppress people, handing out leaflets,
2271
02:41:39,080 --> 02:41:43,040
criticizing them
as a result of the campaign leaflets.
2272
02:41:43,040 --> 02:41:45,480
So given that and thousands
when the case started
2273
02:41:45,480 --> 02:41:48,960
are now giving out in millions
all over the world and the public can see
2274
02:41:49,120 --> 02:41:52,120
that there's a crying need
for an alternative point of view.
2275
02:41:52,400 --> 02:41:57,480
So the billions spent by McDonald's
one sided propaganda
2276
02:41:57,480 --> 02:42:01,720
put out by the McDonald's corporation,
I think that's another point as well,
2277
02:42:01,720 --> 02:42:05,520
because the government referred to
that protection of
2278
02:42:05,840 --> 02:42:09,960
of speech should require that campaigners
should put the balance in their leaflet
2279
02:42:09,960 --> 02:42:12,320
and put the response of McDonald's,
for example.
2280
02:42:12,320 --> 02:42:14,600
Well, there's no requirement on McDonald's
to put the balance
2281
02:42:14,600 --> 02:42:17,600
in their adverts and say, well,
actually our food is healthy.
2282
02:42:17,720 --> 02:42:20,040
You really probably better not eating it.
2283
02:42:20,040 --> 02:42:25,680
So it is the campaigners are the balance
because the world is dominated by
2284
02:42:25,880 --> 02:42:29,480
multinational corporations and governments
acting in their own interests.
2285
02:42:29,480 --> 02:42:34,960
It's quite clear that the government took
the side of of McDonald's in this case
2286
02:42:35,240 --> 02:42:40,920
in that courtroom behind me
so that campaigners and members
2287
02:42:40,920 --> 02:42:43,920
of the public raising legitimate concerns
about how
2288
02:42:43,960 --> 02:42:47,760
about our society and about the future
of our lives, of our planet
2289
02:42:47,960 --> 02:42:52,920
are the balance against the injustice
that people are having to go through.
2290
02:42:54,600 --> 02:42:56,800
But you can do it,
2291
02:42:56,800 --> 02:43:00,800
but you've got no no real feel
for how it's going to turn out today.
2292
02:43:00,800 --> 02:43:04,080
And I thought for hearing
was just symbolic, really.
2293
02:43:04,200 --> 02:43:07,880
Most of the work has been done
behind the scenes on paper,
2294
02:43:08,520 --> 02:43:11,520
and they were really just kind of
going through the motions today.
2295
02:43:11,520 --> 02:43:14,240
But hopefully that the hundreds of pages
2296
02:43:14,240 --> 02:43:18,120
of legal argument
have been put in by us with the help of,
2297
02:43:18,120 --> 02:43:22,440
you know,
legal advisers is going to be convincing.
2298
02:43:22,440 --> 02:43:27,160
If it isn't,
then you know, we will continue
2299
02:43:27,360 --> 02:43:31,840
as people will argue, all over the world
and, you know, challenging questioning
2300
02:43:31,840 --> 02:43:35,720
and challenging and creating alternative
to those that are currently
2301
02:43:35,880 --> 02:43:38,800
creating environmental and social crises
all over the world.
2302
02:43:38,800 --> 02:43:41,800
The planet's in a mess
and based of the movement against
2303
02:43:41,800 --> 02:43:45,080
those in power is growing every minute.
2304
02:43:45,240 --> 02:43:47,840
And we will continue to campaign
until there's a just world
2305
02:43:49,640 --> 02:43:51,720
trying to figure out
2306
02:43:51,720 --> 02:43:54,720
how well help.
2307
02:43:55,240 --> 02:43:58,240
That's only one of the best.
2308
02:44:02,760 --> 02:44:05,040
Yeah, well, of course.
2309
02:44:05,040 --> 02:44:05,760
What do you think, Mark?
2310
02:44:05,760 --> 02:44:08,760
I don't know. It's a good hearing.
2311
02:44:09,120 --> 02:44:11,400
So listen,
2312
02:44:11,400 --> 02:44:13,720
listen, I know it wasn't.
2313
02:44:13,720 --> 02:44:15,840
Maybe you know, but you have no clue.
2314
02:44:15,840 --> 02:44:19,280
There is not any more, you know?
2315
02:44:19,680 --> 02:44:21,160
Okay.
2316
02:44:21,160 --> 02:44:22,920
We don't have direct incompetence
very much.
2317
02:44:22,920 --> 02:44:24,400
Everybody just does their own thing.
2318
02:44:24,400 --> 02:44:27,720
But honestly, I just want to, you know,
2319
02:44:29,920 --> 02:44:31,320
do it.
2320
02:44:31,320 --> 02:44:34,320
It's 98% of
2321
02:44:37,360 --> 02:44:41,480
just right.
2322
02:44:45,440 --> 02:44:48,160
So what we do now is we
2323
02:44:48,160 --> 02:44:50,800
just work
2324
02:44:50,800 --> 02:44:53,480
with a brilliant manager to complain.
2325
02:44:53,480 --> 02:44:56,480
If we don't them just carry on with it
anyway.
2326
02:44:57,120 --> 02:44:57,960
We don't. The laws.
2327
02:44:57,960 --> 02:45:00,880
And I mean you've got people out there
don't your complaint.
2328
02:45:00,880 --> 02:45:03,760
I know, I know, I know. We want to ask
2329
02:45:05,680 --> 02:45:08,600
now again
2330
02:45:08,600 --> 02:45:11,600
25 years it's like this
and he just concentrated
2331
02:45:11,800 --> 02:45:12,720
when you respond he said
2332
02:45:12,720 --> 02:45:16,760
that's all witnesses stories about what
he says about administration travel costs,
2333
02:45:16,760 --> 02:45:20,240
legal advice, 100 days of legal argument
on other cases.
2334
02:45:21,120 --> 02:45:21,800
And I see that.
2335
02:45:21,800 --> 02:45:25,360
But I'm told you must consult with
comprehensive is also kind of propping up
2336
02:45:25,800 --> 02:45:26,400
his life.
2337
02:45:26,400 --> 02:45:28,720
Is he going to get something?
2338
02:45:28,720 --> 02:45:31,720
Not it would be
2339
02:45:31,880 --> 02:45:33,760
for my good friend.
2340
02:45:33,760 --> 02:45:34,040
Yeah.
2341
02:45:34,040 --> 02:45:37,040
It's the diet and disease
and the scientific inquiry.
2342
02:45:37,720 --> 02:45:39,240
It does make the difference.
2343
02:45:39,240 --> 02:45:40,800
At that point.
2344
02:45:40,800 --> 02:45:42,960
You got isolated in the hair in a way.
2345
02:45:42,960 --> 02:45:44,680
Yeah. Yeah.
2346
02:45:44,680 --> 02:45:47,680
And where they could only see it
and the argument.
2347
02:45:47,720 --> 02:45:48,960
Yes it was. Yeah.
2348
02:45:48,960 --> 02:45:51,240
Especially when it's all in the public
domain already.
2349
02:45:51,240 --> 02:45:54,280
Even the top tips
like I was concerned about.
2350
02:45:54,280 --> 02:45:56,800
But I certainly say don't go to those
2351
02:46:00,840 --> 02:46:01,880
bloody dormitories.
2352
02:46:01,880 --> 02:46:03,920
And so, you know
2353
02:46:03,920 --> 02:46:07,720
when they recognize in their own lives,
I'm like, yeah, low, pale.
2354
02:46:08,440 --> 02:46:11,440
She knows where they're going bunkered
down.
2355
02:46:12,240 --> 02:46:13,840
A lot of times.
2356
02:46:13,840 --> 02:46:16,840
Yeah, it's good.
2357
02:46:17,240 --> 02:46:22,560
But yeah,
2358
02:46:22,760 --> 02:46:25,760
she's, she's
2359
02:46:27,120 --> 02:46:30,120
a little bit on Wednesday.
2360
02:46:35,720 --> 02:46:36,360
Yeah.
2361
02:46:36,360 --> 02:46:42,800
She mentioned so
2362
02:46:44,240 --> 02:46:46,120
and that's a frustrating thing
that you're going to go to court now
2363
02:46:46,120 --> 02:46:50,280
which response you you want to respond
that kind of substantial points
2364
02:46:50,280 --> 02:46:53,760
but at the same time it's a little bit
get the facts that they don't get it.
2365
02:46:53,840 --> 02:46:56,840
Yeah so
2366
02:46:57,560 --> 02:47:00,560
they just set up their system
2367
02:47:01,800 --> 02:47:03,840
exactly what's going on this stage.
2368
02:47:03,840 --> 02:47:07,800
There are some names because of
2369
02:47:08,520 --> 02:47:11,120
what was the 30,000.
2370
02:47:11,120 --> 02:47:13,640
This is 30,000 that in their submissions
2371
02:47:13,640 --> 02:47:16,640
and you know, 30,000, 40,000, you know,
2372
02:47:16,640 --> 02:47:20,520
he said by 1993
we have written submissions we've done.
2373
02:47:21,880 --> 02:47:22,080
Yeah.
2374
02:47:22,080 --> 02:47:23,880
Because
they put it in their original response
2375
02:47:23,880 --> 02:47:27,480
because I can't that
I mean it was very clear we can write
2376
02:47:28,920 --> 02:47:29,600
an appeal.
2377
02:47:29,600 --> 02:47:31,920
We did the first. Yeah.
2378
02:47:31,920 --> 02:47:34,600
And that was domestically in.
2379
02:47:34,600 --> 02:47:38,080
But Yeah but the thing about Dave
having an adjournment
2380
02:47:38,080 --> 02:47:42,080
to get advice about Haringey affidavit
and whether it's give evidence,
2381
02:47:42,600 --> 02:47:45,600
it's completely,
you know, that's completely false.
2382
02:47:45,600 --> 02:47:49,320
And it was basically what happened
2383
02:47:49,320 --> 02:47:53,560
was just you know Dave said
I don't think I need to give evidence.
2384
02:47:53,560 --> 02:47:55,000
I think there's a case against me.
2385
02:47:55,000 --> 02:47:59,160
And then the judge said, you know,
someone said something about just
2386
02:48:00,480 --> 02:48:02,400
considering it overnight,
and that was what happened.
2387
02:48:02,400 --> 02:48:05,400
It wasn't, yeah,
2388
02:48:20,840 --> 02:48:23,280
we're just standing in
the steps of the court.
2389
02:48:23,280 --> 02:48:23,640
Young
2390
02:48:28,880 --> 02:48:31,040
David Yes, I'm sure.
2391
02:48:31,040 --> 02:48:34,040
Yeah, that's
2392
02:48:34,560 --> 02:48:35,400
we weren't meant to get one.
2393
02:48:35,400 --> 02:48:37,680
The whole legal team
want you to tell me to get some, You know?
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